\n<\/p>\n
Multifamily real estate investing<\/strong><\/a> can be scary to a new investor. After all, buying more units<\/strong> requires more money<\/strong>, more resources<\/strong>, and a larger team<\/strong>. But today\u2019s guest is here to show you that multifamily investing is not nearly as intimidating as it may seem and why NOW is the perfect time to get started<\/strong>!<\/p>\n Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie<\/em> podcast<\/strong>! In this episode, Andrew Cushman<\/strong> delivers a masterclass<\/strong> in multifamily real estate<\/strong>. Andrew got his start flipping houses<\/strong><\/a> for profit, only to find that he was missing out on the consistent cash flow<\/strong> and long-term <\/strong>appreciation<\/strong><\/a> of buy and hold properties<\/strong><\/a>. So, he dived headfirst into the world of multifamily investing<\/strong>. Today, he shares how he landed his first multifamily deal<\/strong>\u2014the good, the bad, and<\/em> the ugly.<\/p>\n If you\u2019ve ever considered buying multifamily properties, Andrew explains why you should start now<\/strong>. He also offers some essential tips<\/strong> for investing in today\u2019s market<\/strong> and provides a wealth of resources to help you define your perfect buy box<\/strong>. Finally, you\u2019re going to need the right people around you to tackle multifamily real estate. Andrew shows you how to build your team<\/strong><\/a> and how to pitch a long-term buy and hold<\/strong> property to potential investors!<\/p>\n Ashley: Tony: Ashley: Tony: Ashley: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Tony: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Tony: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Andrew: Ashley: Tony: Ashley: Andrew: Tony: Andrew: Tony: Ashley: \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Help us reach new listeners on iTunes by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found here<\/a>. Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n Interested in learning more about today\u2019s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email <\/em>[email\u00a0protected]<\/span><\/em><\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n Note By BiggerPockets:<\/b> These are opinions written by the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of BiggerPockets.<\/p>\n
This is Real Estate Rookie, episode 346. My name is Ashley Kehr, and I\u2019m here with my co-host, Tony J. Robinson.<\/p>\n
Welcome to The Real Estate Rookie Podcast where every week, twice a week, we\u2019re bringing you the inspiration, motivation, and stories you need to hear to kickstart your investing journey. Today, we have the one and only Andrew Cushman. If you guys are at all familiar with the BiggerPockets ecosystem, he\u2019s had, I don\u2019t know, 50 episodes on The Real Estate Podcast, but it\u2019s his first time here on the Rookie Show. Andrew is an expert in the multifamily space. So we bring him on, and you\u2019re going to hear his journey of getting started as a new multifamily investor, what a real estate syndication is, and why he made the transition from flipping houses to real estate syndication. You\u2019re going to learn about how to build your buy box, your multifamily. We\u2019re going to talk about is now a good time to even get started in multifamily, and you\u2019ll be surprised, I think, by what Andrew\u2019s answer is.<\/p>\n
We recently had AJ Osborne on episode 340, and he talks about why now is a great time to get into self storage. So I\u2019m very curious as to what Andrew has to say to us as to why now is a great time to get into multifamily.<\/p>\n
Now, before we keep going, I just want to give a quick shout-out to someone in the rookie audience by the username of Kdemsky79, and Kdemsky left a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and said, \u201cI love this podcast because it gives me the inspiration to pursue my real estate investing dreams. There\u2019s a good spread of expert guests,\u201d like today\u2019s episode, \u201cand rookies telling their story.\u201d So if you are a part of the rookie audience and you have not yet left us an honest rating and review, please do because the more reviews we get, the more folks we can inspire, and inspiring folks helps them take action and hopefully get their first deal which is what we\u2019re all about here at The Rookie Podcast.<\/p>\n
Andrew, welcome to the show. Let\u2019s jump right into it. Andrew, I want to know, is right now a great time for a rookie investor to get into multifamily?<\/p>\n
Contrary to what the news headlines would have you believe, yes, it is. One big thing to keep in mind is if you\u2019re looking to get into this all this negative crazy stuff that you\u2019re hearing about interest rates going up, and people can\u2019t make the mortgage payments, and syndicators are collapsing, all this stuff is happening, and it\u2019s true, but it only affects deals that were bought in the past. If you are new, if you\u2019re looking to get into new deals, all this actually benefits you because prices have come down 20% to 30%, and it\u2019s a myth that interest rates make apartments not work. What happens is when interest rates go up, the cost of debt goes up, and therefore, the price has to come down in order to be able to have the property generate enough income to pay for the debt. So if you\u2019re going into a new deal, all that means is you just buy it at the right price, you go get a loan, doesn\u2019t matter if it\u2019s 6%, 7%, 8% as long as you bought the property for the right price, and if it cashflows and works today, you\u2019re good to go.
So all of the turmoil that you\u2019re hearing, if you\u2019re looking to get into the business, this is the chance you\u2019ve been waiting for for the last 10 years because the refrain for the last 10 years is, \u201cOh, it\u2019s so hard to get a deal. It\u2019s too hard. There\u2019s so much competition. Everyone is overbidding,\u201d and that was all true. That is all going away, and now is definitely the time to get in because, again, competition is way down, pricing is down 20% to 30%, seller motivation is up. Right? It used to be you had to put hard money which means before you even do any due diligence, you can\u2019t get your deposit back, so there\u2019s a huge risk there. That is going away.
Also, keep in mind it is impossible to perfectly time the market. We will only know when the bottom is when we\u2019re looking back going, \u201cOh dang, that was it. I wish I bought more.\u201d So if you take advantage of the disruption now and pick up the right properties that you can hold long-term, nobody has ever regretted buying a nice multifamily property 20 years ago. You cannot find that person. So if you be that person who starts buying now, then you\u2019re setting yourself up for success down the road. Again, now is the chance you\u2019ve been waiting for for the last decade.<\/p>\n
Andrew, you said that some of the properties that aren\u2019t performing well or that are struggling, those properties that were purchased in the past, what were some of those mistakes that you think those buyers made that set them up to struggle given this current economic climate, and what can we learn from that as new investors?<\/p>\n
I\u2019d say there\u2019s two main mistakes that buyers of all kinds made from mom-and-pop to syndicators to big institutions. One of them is that people got a little too aggressive with their assumptions, and this addresses a broader topic of when you\u2019re looking at deals of making assumptions that have a high probability of coming true. So a given example is I saw deals get sent to me where the person or the group buying it was assuming 7% rent growth for the next five years. That\u2019s unlikely to happen, or property taxes only going up 2% a year for the next five years. Again, not likely to happen, especially if you\u2019re in places like Texas where it\u2019s like it\u2019s a whole game to see how high they can jack up your property taxes. So the number one mistake that has led to current distress was overly optimistic, overly aggressive assumptions in underwriting.
The second big one, and this is one where it\u2019s a mix of some people were being irresponsible, some people just got caught off guard, and also, just the fact that nobody saw a 500 basis point interest rate increase coming. So what happened is something like 70% or 80% of commercial real estate including apartments in 2021 and 2022 was purchased with floating rate loans. Most single-family houses, you buy a mortgage, you buy the property, you get a mortgage, the rate is fixed for 30 years, you\u2019re good to go. In the commercial world, the debt works quite different, and it\u2019s often due in 3 years, 5 years, 7 years, or 10 years. There\u2019s some exceptions, but much shorter timeline, and a lot of the mass\u2026 majority of the properties in the last couple of years were bought with loans that were due in two, three or five years. So, again, that means they\u2019re due this year or next year, in 2025. On top of that, the interest rate moves as the market moves.
So someone bought an apartment complex, they might have been paying a 3% interest rate, and today, they\u2019re paying 8%, which means they can\u2019t make the mortgage payment anymore, which means the lenders might foreclose, or the values come down 30%, and they can\u2019t refinance into another loan. So, now, they have this huge balloon payment that\u2019s due in three months. They can\u2019t refinance, the property is not worth enough to sell, they can\u2019t make the mortgage payment, and all of a sudden, you\u2019ve got sellers that have to sell and have motivation. That is something we have not seen in a decade, and that\u2019s part of what\u2019s leading to both the distress and the opportunity.<\/p>\n
Yeah, Andrew, too, and super incredible points, and I couldn\u2019t agree more. Just on that first point about being overly optimistic, and Ash, I want to get your thoughts on this too, but I think for a lot of new investors, it is tricky to walk that line of how aggressive or optimistic should I be when I\u2019m analyzing a deal because when the market is hot like how it was in 2021, 2022, if you were too conservative with your numbers, you would miss out on every single deal. If you weren\u2019t conservative enough, you could end up in a situation where you buy a deal that doesn\u2019t necessarily pencil out. So, Ash, I want to ask you first. As you were looking at properties 2021, 2022, how were you striking that balance of not being too conservative that you were missing out on everything, but also not being too lax where you would potentially buy a bad deal?<\/p>\n
Yeah. I\u2019m definitely very conservative when I run my numbers. I definitely don\u2019t say like, \u201cOh, maybe I can get cheaper dumpster service for the apartment complex,\u201d or anything like that. I am very good at being diligent about sticking to my numbers and also over-inflating my expenses a little bit. So what I did to pivot through this change in the market is I found where I could add additional revenue to properties. So one of the things was like, \u201cOkay. We\u2019re buying land. Can we sell any of the timber that\u2019s associated with it? What other multiple income streams can we generate? Can we charge people to park their RVs in this huge parking lot?\u201d Things like that.
So that was where I had to learn I have to think outside of the box is somebody is looking at this property, and they\u2019re saying, \u201cOkay. I can rent this house out for that amount. I can rent the barn out for this amount. What other ways can I generate revenue off of this property where I can now create the income that will make this deal work for me?\u201d or maybe another investor coming in and saying, \u201cI can\u2019t pay this price because it doesn\u2019t make sense,\u201d or, \u201cI can\u2019t use this type of lending where I could.\u201d So that\u2019s where I had to pivot and change is to finding different ways to generate revenue off of properties.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Ash, I really like some of those creative things that you mentioned, and that\u2019s\u2026 In multifamily, the money is really made in operations, and some of the things you just mentioned, those are perfect examples of what makes someone a really good operator versus just an okay operator. In the last 10 years, you could get away with being an okay operator. Now, you\u2019re going to have to do the things that you were just talking about.
Tony, you nailed what has been the dilemma for the last five, six years is you wanted to be conservative and realistic so that you hit your numbers, you bought a good deal, you were able to pay your investors, all of those things. But if you overdid it, you just never get a deal. If you find the easy, concise answer to that, please let me know because we\u2019ve analyzing literally thousands of deals. I\u2019m not quite sure the answer, but this is what I boil it down to. A phrase that one of my old original mentors told me is he said, \u201cIt is better to regret the deal you didn\u2019t do than to regret the deal you did do.\u201d So when it\u2019s tough to decide, that\u2019s what I lean on.<\/p>\n
That is great, Andrew, and I think that\u2019s great advice to any new investor looking forward as to what they\u2019re looking at to buy right now and as to if\u2026 \u201cOkay. can I fudge the numbers a little bit?\u201d \u201cNo, you can\u2019t to make this deal work.\u201d<\/p>\n
No. You\u2019ll probably regret it later.<\/p>\n
Yes. Okay. Well, Andrew, this is all great information and just a starting point of what we\u2019re going to talk about in today\u2019s episode going forward, but first, let\u2019s take a short break. So we just heard from Andrew about how past problems that buyers are having are now surfacing in multifamily. Let\u2019s get into some consideration is if you want to start multifamily investing, what you should be doing today. So, Andrew, let\u2019s start from the beginning. Do you have an example of a deal that you could go through with us where maybe everything did not work out okay and you had some lessons learned?<\/p>\n
Yeah. I mean, since we\u2019re on The Rookie Podcast, I\u2019ll start with the first one. I wasn\u2019t a rookie to real estate. I\u2019d been flipping for four years, but I was a rookie to multifamily, and my first\u2026 and I did have a mentor and a coach that I had hired. We\u2019re actually still friends and business partners to this day. So I wasn\u2019t just going and completely winging it. However, people said, \u201cWell, how did you get that first deal?\u201d Well, it was really a combination of enthusiasm and being a little too naive.
Our first deal\u2026 Now, this is back in 2011 when you could literally just go on LoopNet and pull up a huge list of properties and say, \u201cI want to go look at these 10.\u201d I\u2019ll come out in three weeks, and they\u2019ll still be there. Not the case for the last 10 years, but that\u2019s what it was then, and that\u2019s how I found the deal. Literally, just looked on the map at a market that I thought would be good, didn\u2019t have all the good screening procedures that we have in place now, started talking to a broker that had a ton of listings in that market. He saw a sucker coming from a mile away and said, \u201cI\u2019m going to talk to this guy,\u201d and I ended up buying a mostly vacant, like 75% vacant, 92-unit 1960s and 1970s construction property out in Macon, Georgia on the complete opposite side of the country from me, and that was our first deal.
I had to raise a total of $1.2 million to get that done. It was not financeable. It had to be all cash. I completely underestimated how hard it would be to raise that money in that environment, and we are getting back to that environment today where everyone is scared of real estate like they were in 2011. I had to extend the contract period twice by adding more money to the deposit, non-refundable, just days before I had to close, got just enough money raised to close, and then took six months after closing to have to finish raising it. Fortunately, our documents allowed us to do that. That is probably the biggest reason why I started turning\u2026 my hair really started turning gray about that time because it was major stress.<\/p>\n
Andrew, at least you got some hair. You could join the Shady Head Club with me.<\/p>\n
But see, you got a strong presence on the lower side of your head. I have even more gray there, so I\u2019m just like, \u201cNot going to work.\u201d Some of the mistakes that we made, number one\u2026 Well, actually, I\u2019m going to start with some of the things we did right. You said, \u201cWell, why did you do that on the other side of the country?\u201d Well, for one, my philosophy is live where you love to live and invest where the returns are the best. I live in southern California. You could not pay me enough to be a landlord here and have to deal with the garbage the legislature makes you go through, so we said, \u201cAll right. We want to be in the Southeast United States where the economics are good, the demographics are good, it\u2019s business-friendly, it\u2019s landlord-friendly, all of these things.\u201d
Why did we go straight to 92 units, which I don\u2019t recommend most people actually do, is because, well, we said, \u201cWell, we want a property that\u2019s big enough to hire and support its own full-time staff that works for us because I\u2019m going to have to asset manage this thing from the other side of the country.\u201d I\u2019m not going to be flying out to fix a water heater because, number one, I don\u2019t know how to do it anyway, and then two\u2026 So I want people who were there all day, they live there, that\u2019s their job to run it. So that\u2019s why we went big, and we\u2019re really glad we did that.
Some of the mistakes were dramatically underestimated the cost of the renovations in addition to\u2026 Those old neglected properties are like a rotten onion. You peel off a layer, and the layer underneath is even worse. We had multiple episodes of vandalism where people would rip out the copper pipes, not even turn off the water. They must have gotten soaked. Yeah. If I was going to vandalize, I\u2019d at least make sure I\u2019m not getting wet so if the cops see me on the street, it\u2019s not obvious if it was me. So not only did they rip out the copper, they flood the unit, so there goes $50,000.
It was a rough neighborhood. When we walked into the head of the police, the police chief, and we said, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what we want to do. We want to partner with you guys to clean this up,\u201d he looked at us and said, \u201cGood luck.\u201d That\u2019s not the response I was going for. Now, we did get it cleaned up. We did get the crime reduced. When we bought it, it was collecting $8,000 a month on 92 units. We quintupled that basically five times over, and we did sell it for a good profit. However, lots of mistakes, lots of lessons learned. Don\u2019t go buy a giant, neglected, highly distressed property in a bad area for your first deal.<\/p>\n
So, Andrew, just one thing I want to question before we get into the nitty-gritty of this detail or of this deal is you said you were flipping for four years prior to that. What was the motivation for transitioning from flipping to multifamily?<\/p>\n
It is multifaceted. One flipping is a great way to get started in real estate, to generate chunks of money and build up some cash. But unless you\u2019re one of these people who is going to build a seven-figure flipping business and have other people run it, it\u2019s just another intense job, and you\u2019re only as good as your last flip. You sell a house, you put some money in the bank, you got nothing left to show for it. I mean, again, it\u2019s good. It\u2019s a good business. It can be great money. But if you\u2019re looking for something residual, it doesn\u2019t typically provide that.
The second is we\u2026 My wife and I are business partners. When I say we, I\u2019m typically referring to her and I. We had great 2009, 2010, 2011, great years because everyone, again, was scared of real estate. Prices were coming down. We had almost no competition. But then, everyone else started to figure out the opportunity, and no one had equity anymore, and so we said, \u201cAll right. Flipping is great, but it\u2019s just another intense job. What would produce more residual, more long-lasting wealth?\u201d We said, \u201cOkay. We just had a huge recession which probably means we\u2019re going to have a long expansion coming after that. Expansion means job creation, household formation, and everybody either got foreclosed on and can\u2019t buy a house for the next seven years, or they know somebody who gets foreclosed on and they\u2019re scared to buy a house for the next seven years. So that means, put all those things together, there\u2019s probably going to be a whole lot of rental demand. So let\u2019s go learn how to do apartments.\u201d So that is how and why we transitioned to apartments in 2011.<\/p>\n
You talked about that you raised money for this deal. So did you do a syndication? Was this private money you took on? Can you explain the funding of this deal?<\/p>\n
Yeah. So the funding was\u2026 We did a syndication which, like you mentioned, is basically you put a deal together, you put a pro forma and a package together and say, \u201cHey, we\u2019re buying this apartment complex. Here\u2019s the business plan. Here\u2019s what we think the returns are going to be. We need $1 million dollars to do this. Everyone can invest $25,000, or $100,000, or whatever you have.\u201d So that\u2019s how we funded it. As I mentioned, we ran short because I underestimated how hard it was to raise $1.2 million back then.
My very first check was my mom, and then the checks after that were the people who were giving us the money to flip the houses. We had some private lenders that funded those, and then the final $200,000, we didn\u2019t want to retrade or go back to the seller and try to change the pricing, so what we did, we said, \u201cHey, look. The honest truth is this property has got a lot more work to be done than we anticipated, which is 100% true. We\u2019re not going to ask you for a price reduction. However, we want you to help us out by carrying a note and loaning us the remaining balance of the funds.\u201d I think we ended up settling on $200,000 or $300,000. That\u2019s actually how we finished it off is we got the seller to carry some for us, and then we paid him off when we stabilized it and refinanced it a couple of years down the road.<\/p>\n
Andrew, one of the things you said which stood out to me was that you took these relationships that you have with your private moneylenders in your flipping business, and they were some of your early investors in this deal. In the Real Estate Partnerships book, Ash and I talk about the benefit of starting smaller with your investors, and then testing the waters there to move up to something bigger. So, in a flip, I mean, what? You\u2019re probably holding money maybe six months to a year when you\u2019ve got a flip that you\u2019re working on. Maybe even shorter timeframe than that. So if for whatever reason that partnership doesn\u2019t work out, it\u2019s a six-month partnership, right? But since you\u2019ve built that relationship with people, now it\u2019s easier to go into a more expensive asset where the time horizon was, whatever, three to five years to get that thing stabilized.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s another good point. If someone is listening to this saying, \u201cOkay. This is all great, but I don\u2019t have any track record. I want to buy a 10-unit, but I have no track record multifamily,\u201d start with the people who know your track record in whatever you are currently doing. Whether you\u2019ve been flipping for five years and you have private investors, or you\u2019ve been doing notes or maybe even working as a pharmacist for the last 10 years, and all your coworkers know you as someone who\u2019s honest, and trustworthy, and hardworking, that is\u2026 Lean on any kind of track record you have in your network there.
Every single one of us in multifamily or anything started at zero at some point with no track record, and so don\u2019t let that be a hurdle. Figure out what else do you have that counts as track record and say, \u201cYeah. Maybe I\u2019ve never\u2026\u201d Again, this only applies if you\u2019re raising money. If you have your own cash, this goes away. But if you\u2019re looking to bring in other people, leverage the other characteristics and strengths you have, the other things that you\u2019ve done to say, \u201cYeah, this is something new, but here\u2019s why I should be successful at it because of all this other things that I\u2019ve done.\u201d<\/p>\n
Even if you have your own cash, think about all the big companies, even they\u2019ve got cash. They\u2019re still going out there and raising capital from other people because it allows you to do even bigger deals. Right? I\u2019d love to, Andrew, break down the numbers on that first syndication because I think for a lot of investors, when they hear you got 92 units, that\u2019s\u2026 \u201cWhat is that? $1.2 million raise?\u201d The pie gets split up quite a few ways when you do a syndication. Especially the first go around, the syndicators are typically a little bit more generous to the limited partners to make sure that they can get a good return. So if you can, first, break down the structure for us, Andrew, on what that deal looked like, and if you\u2019re open, what was the actual profits that you generated from that deal?<\/p>\n
Yeah. So when we closed on it, technically, I was supposed to get a $50,000 acquisition fee. I don\u2019t think I actually took that until a year or two later. The split of profits from operations and sale was, back then, 70% to investors, 30% to sponsor. Today, it\u2019s much more common for that to be 80% to investors and 20% to sponsor. When we sold it, we\u2026 What did we sell it? We bought it for $699,000 or something right around there, and we ended up selling it for $1.92 about five years later. I don\u2019t remember what the internal rate of return and all that stuff was. I mean, it was good, but I truly do not remember what that was.
So, again, it was a lot of mistakes and lessons learned, but that was the buy, the sell, the splits. Like I said, we did refinance about two years in, and we refinanced, we paid off the seller, and then we returned\u2026 I don\u2019t remember. Again, I don\u2019t remember the percentage, but we returned the majority of the original capital to investors. So if someone had put in $100,000 at the beginning, when we refinanced a couple of years later, they might\u2019ve gotten $70,000 back or something like that. But then, they still retained their ownership percentage. They don\u2019t get diluted.
That\u2019s still pretty much the structure that we use today where maybe we got a Fannie Mae bank loan or Fannie Mae\u2019s government agency kind of, but it\u2019s a primary mortgage, and then we syndicate the equity. We put in some ourselves. Profits are generally split 80-20, and we typically operate for about five years. Then, if there\u2019s a refinance in the middle, then we\u2019ll typically use that to give some of the original capital back so that there\u2019s less risk. Right? If you put in $100,000 and you get $40,000 or $50,000 back, but your ownership percentage stays the same, now your risk level is down because absolute worst case scenario, you can only lose what\u2019s still invested. So does that\u2026 Hopefully. I do want to differentiate because how things were done and structured 12 years ago is a little different than now, but that\u2019s how it was done.<\/p>\n
Andrew, I can\u2019t even get past the 92 units for $699,000.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Isn\u2019t that crazy? Less than $10,000 a unit. I spend more in renovations these days on a unit than I paid to buy those things.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Crazy. So what would your recommendation be? So that\u2019s how you got your start in multifamily, funding and putting together a deal that way. What would be your recommendation today as a rookie investor as to how they can fund a smaller multifamily deal?<\/p>\n
Recommendations in terms of the overall process, or just how to get started, or just how to fund it?<\/p>\n
How do you think they should start? Say they have no money.<\/p>\n
No money. Okay.<\/p>\n
How should they go and fund a deal? Should they be looking for bankable products because it\u2019s great to get a bank loan right now, or should they be doing a syndication, or try and get seller financing? Whatever advice you have as to this is a great way to try to find a way to fund buying your first multifamily.<\/p>\n
So the good news is when it comes to multifamily commercial property, so five units and bigger, the debt is not necessarily based on your credit score and your personal cashflow. It\u2019s based on the cashflow that the property produces. Yes, they\u2019re going to look at your credit score. So if they pull your credit, and you\u2019re a 321, they\u2019re going to say, \u201cEh, maybe we don\u2019t want to fully trust this person,\u201d but you don\u2019t have to have stellar credit. It\u2019s not like getting a mortgage today where if you\u2019re below 750, they don\u2019t want to give you a mortgage anymore. You don\u2019t have to have perfect credit. So that is the good news.
Also, the good news is the money for the down payment, for the renovations, for the transit, all of that does not have to come from you. Now, these days, we invest in every deal we do, but for a lot of the deals, we didn\u2019t because we didn\u2019t have the cash. So if you\u2019re getting started and you\u2019re saying, \u201cHey\u2026\u201d Let\u2019s say you live in Dallas, and you find a great 10-unit that\u2019s a couple of miles from home, you\u2019re like, \u201cOh man, I really want to acquire this property, but I don\u2019t have the money.\u201d The ways to overcome that are, number one, you can do joint ventures, which means just you and a couple of people who have the money become equal partners in an LLC, and then you purchase the money, and you all have decision-making capabilities. This is what keeps it from being a syndication. You don\u2019t have to worry about SEC rules as long as you are all\u2026 Again, it\u2019s a JV. You all have management responsibilities, so you are putting in basically the sweat equity, you\u2019re finding the deal, maybe you\u2019re going to run the deal, and then you bring these people in, they provide the cash. That\u2019s one way to do it, joint venture.
Another is to, again, syndicate. This is where you are finding the deal. You\u2019re going to operate the deal. You put together a pro forma, and you say, \u201cOkay. I need\u2026\u201d Let\u2019s see, 10 units in Dallas. Maybe you\u2019re going to go raise a million dollars. I mean, $1.5 million, and say you\u2019re going to go out to people that you already know and have a relationship with and say, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what I\u2019m doing. Here\u2019s an opportunity for you to earn some passive income and some wealth creation. Do you want to invest in this opportunity?\u201d You\u2019re not asking for money. You\u2019re providing a service and an opportunity, and it\u2019s important to make sure you frame it that way.<\/p>\n
That is so key right there, that phrase you just said.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not only do you need to internalize that, but you need to project that when you\u2019re talking to investors. It\u2019s a 100% true, but it\u2019s just ingrained in our nature like, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t want to ask for money.\u201d Well, you\u2019re not. You\u2019re literally providing a service and an opportunity, especially if you\u2019re doing it the right way. So syndication is one, partners is one. You could get private debt. If you do that for a large\u2026 Let\u2019s use some smaller numbers here. Let\u2019s just say you need a total of $500,000, and you\u2019ve got $100,000. Maybe you can get some private debt for $400,000 as long as you\u2019ve disclosed that to the lender. Some will allow it, some won\u2019t. Then, the one thing to keep in mind is unlike single-family, multifamily has much higher transaction costs. You have much larger deposits. You have very expensive attorneys involved going through loan documents and purchasing sale contracts. The appraisals are more expensive. I mean, there\u2019s a whole host of other things involved that can add up to be $50,000, $100,000, $200,000 depending on the size of the transaction.
Now, if you don\u2019t have that cash, that is where you definitely will need to find a partner. So going back to that very first deal in 2011 where we were raising $1.2 million, and again, it was all syndicated, I had to front $125,000 just to get it to closing. Now, that is a cost of the deal, and that is\u2026 As the sponsor, if you\u2019re syndicating, that is refundable to you out of the raise because, again, it\u2019s a cost of the deal, but you have to have that money upfront just to get to closing, to make the deposit, to pay the attorneys, all of those things. So if you don\u2019t have that, then your first step is to find somebody who does and who wants to do this with you. Again, if you\u2019re going to go buy a 5 or a 10-unit in your backyard, that amount is going to be smaller. It scales up.<\/p>\n
What would you say would approximately be the dollar amount where it\u2019s worth it to do a syndication?<\/p>\n
That is a really good question. So your first one in terms of dollars is not going to be worth it, but you have to look at it differently in that if you are looking to syndicate apartments or really, any other asset, and build a large portfolio, and build a business out of it, making money yourself on your first deal or two is goal number four. Goal number one is to learn. You can learn a lot through podcasts, and coaches, and mentors, and books, but there\u2019s a certain point at which you just got to do it and learning through guided experience. So, number one, you\u2019re looking for experience. Number two, you\u2019re looking to build that track record so that you can say, \u201cHey, I have actually done these type of deals before,\u201d because you can get started without a track record, but it does get easier the bigger track record you have.
Then, the more you can go to the lenders and say, \u201cI have experience. I have other loans. I\u2019m in this market,\u201d those things build on each other. So when you\u2019re doing your first deal and if you\u2019re looking to get into syndication, your goals are track record, adding investors to your list, building relationships with brokers, all of those things. Then, profiting from it, that\u2019s hopefully a nice benefit of doing all those things. You got to really look longer-term, and realize and understand that the first few years typically of building a syndication business is not all that lucrative. It only gets\u2026 Well, I shouldn\u2019t say only. It typically gets lucrative years down the road when you\u2019ve built it the right way.<\/p>\n
So, Andrew, one of the things you said earlier that really stood out to me was that you live where you love to live, but you invest where it makes the most sense. You lived in Southern California, very expensive market, decided to invest in Georgia, a much more affordable place to invest, but how did you decide on what your buy box was as you moved into that market, and for rookie investors to today, what would your recommendation be for that first commercial deal on how to build that buy box?<\/p>\n
My buy box back then was basically anything that someone would sell to me.<\/p>\n
Is that your advice for rookie investors today?<\/p>\n
That is my advice to absolutely not do, and candidly, that is one of the reasons that most investors start off in lower end properties is because they seem affordable, the seller is willing to give and sell it to you because no one else wants to buy it. What I like to say is those properties are cheaper and more available for a good reason. The grass is greener over the septic tank. Just don\u2019t step there. Stay away. So our buy box now or someone who\u2019s getting started, number one, just decide a number of things. Are you a cashflow investor, or are you looking for appreciation or a little bit of both? I would recommend, especially in the beginning and especially if you can\u2019t take a big financial hit if something goes wrong, make sure you\u2019ve got at least some good cashflow to sustain the property. So you can decide if you\u2019re a cashflow or appreciation. Are you going to self-manage or use third-party?
Just in general terms, you want to look for properties that are in areas where\u2026 Now, this could be a city on the other side of the country, or this could be just picking the right neighborhood in your backyard, but the key things to success, getting started in multifamily, is buy in an area where you have population growth, job growth. Those two are the biggest. Beyond that, you want good median incomes or high median incomes. When we say high median income, that means high relative to the rent you are charging. $60,000 median income is pretty good in secondary markets in Georgia. That is the poverty level in Southern California, so you have to\u2026 Basically, what you\u2019re looking for is can the average or median person easily afford the rent that you\u2019re going to charge? You want to buy in areas with low crime, and especially in the beginning, I highly recommend buying properties that are not in flood zones.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I had a very bad experience with a single-family home in a flood zone. Yeah, worst deal I think I\u2019ve done so far, but anyway, I want to talk a little bit because you said population growth, job growth, but low crime. As a new investor, where should I go to get this information? What are some tried and true data sources to identify, \u201cHey, what\u2019s the median household income? Is the population getting bigger or smaller, et cetera?\u201d<\/p>\n
Yeah. I\u2019ve got a couple of good sources for you. Number one, we did a\u2026 I guess it\u2019s the OG BiggerPockets Podcast, episode 571. We went through the whole screening process that we use and how to do that, how to identify the neighborhoods that I just talked about. So go check that out, and then there was a follow-up episode shortly after that where we dove into some underwriting stuff. So check those two out. However, if you are open to investing, just, again, live where you want to live, invest where the returns are good, go to the Harvard Joint Center for Housing Studies. They have an awesome map on that website of every county in the United States, and it\u2019s color-coded which makes it super simple for guys like me who just like it easy and visual. Basically, you want to invest in the counties that are dark blue because that is where you have the greatest population growth and greatest migration. So if you\u2019re like, \u201cUgh, Andrew, I have no idea where I want to start. It\u2019s a big country,\u201d go get that map and start with the blue counties.
Some other really good places to get data is we subscribe to Esri, E-S-R-I. I think it\u2019s only $100 or hundred-something a year. It\u2019s not terribly expensive, but they have a tremendous amount of the demographic data that I\u2019m talking about. Again, population, income, all that kind of stuff. That is what we use for every deal we\u2019re looking at to this day. If you just google \u201cFEMA flood maps,\u201d F-E-M-A, that\u2019s the government website that shows you the maps of what\u2019s in a flood zone and what is not. You also want to go to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, bls.gov. That is a wealth of information for job growth, population growth, income. Basically, all the government statistics, and then there\u2019s another one. It\u2019s called Rich Blocks, Poor Blocks. It\u2019s exactly what it sounds. Just those four words all jammed together dot-com. It will show you median income for different neighborhoods.
That\u2019s a key point is you\u2019ll see a lot of broker pro formas and offering them rents where it\u2019s like, \u201cThree mile radius. Median income, $90,000.\u201d Right? Well, if you\u2019ve ever been to a city like LA or Dallas, sometimes if you just cross the street, it can be a completely different world, and so you do not want to just take a big average area and say, \u201cOh, the median income is good.\u201d You really want to drill down to the neighborhood that your property is in. In terms of crime, there\u2019s about a billion different websites out there like Crime Mapper and a whole bunch. Just google crime statistics in whatever city you\u2019re in, and you\u2019ll probably find about 16 different resources for that.<\/p>\n
That was great, Andrew. There was a couple there that I hadn\u2019t heard of, and I always love to watch Tony vigorously google things and look things up, but there\u2019s two that I would add is brightinvestor.com, that\u2019s a newer software, and then also NeighborhoodScout too is one that I have used. Yeah.<\/p>\n
NeighborhoodScout is good. Also, let\u2019s say you\u2019ve already identified some markets. Let\u2019s say you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay. I\u2019m trying to decide between Boise, and Dallas, and Atlanta.\u201d Go to the big brokerage sites like\u2026 Berkadia is really good, but Berkadia, Marcus and Millichap, Cushman and Wakefield, CBRE, all of these, and sign up to be on, basically, their distribution list. Those guys put out reports sometimes monthly, at least quarterly of all these different markets. They are brokers, so they\u2019re a little optimistic at times, but they do typically provide all the sources for the material they\u2019re referencing, and so they\u2019ll list out all the announcements of new jobs, and new plants being built, and all that kind of stuff. So that\u2019s another really good free resource is to go get yourself added to the list of the various brokerages that have offices in whatever markets you want to invest in.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s a great tip right there. That was a really great informational deep dive into different resources where you can find different stats and data to actually verify the market that you\u2019re in. Anyone can go on the BiggerPockets Forums. They can go on Instagram, anywhere, and they can see, \u201cYou know what? Andrew, he\u2019s really successful in Houston, Texas right now. You know what? I want to do what he\u2019s doing. I\u2019m going to go to Houston because he\u2019s doing it.\u201d Yes, maybe some investor is successful in a market, but that doesn\u2019t mean that their strategy, or their why, or what their reason is for investing, or their end goal is going to align with yours. So just because somebody is investing in one market or location, it doesn\u2019t mean that it is a good fit for what you want to do, so make sure that you are always going and you are verifying, verifying, verifying.
So we could have Andrew right now just tell us, \u201cOkay. Right now, what\u2019s the best market to invest in?\u201d and Dave Meyer does this all the time where he\u2019ll pick a random market, and he will just go through on BiggerPockets and say, \u201cThis is the good of this market, this is the bad of this market, this is who should invest there, and whatnot.\u201d But that doesn\u2019t mean that it\u2019s going to be a perfect match for what you\u2019re doing. So you always want to go, and you want to pull this information on your own. Getting a market tip, hot tip from somebody is a great starting point, but make sure you\u2019re not just taking somebody\u2019s word for it, and you\u2019re actually going and verifying that data from a lot of these resources.<\/p>\n
Let\u2019s talk a little bit, Andrew, about building out your team. So say that you\u2019ve chosen your market, you\u2019ve got an idea of what your buy box is, but as you actually go through the steps of purchasing, setting up, managing, et cetera, I\u2019m assuming you\u2019re not doing all this stuff yourself. Right? So who are the team members that you need to build out? How does it differ from traditional single-family investing, and then what steps are you taking to find those people?<\/p>\n
So, first off, go get David Greene\u2019s book Long-Distance Real Estate Investing even if you\u2019re doing it in your backyard, and that will make sense in a moment. The big difference is when you\u2019re going from single-family to multifamily, there\u2019s some additional team members that you need that you may not necessarily need in single-family. So, a team in multifamily. That will often involve property managers. Do you self-manage? Do you use third-party? That\u2019s a personal business decision that depends a lot on what your goals are. My recommendation would be if you are just getting started and don\u2019t have any property management experience at all, either partner with somebody who does or hire a third-party, but pretend they\u2019re not there. What I mean by that is you have to have the right third-party company to let you do this, but approach it as they\u2019re co-managing with you, and you\u2019re there to help them and to make, whoever is working on your property, their job as easy as possible so that you can see the systems that they have, so that you can see how they address problems as they come up, and learn on the job.
Again, what I don\u2019t recommend doing is just\u2026 Unless you enjoy it, and you live right close by, and you want to be heavily involved, don\u2019t go by 10 units and try to manage it by yourself with no mentors and no experience. Also, don\u2019t buy your 10-unit and hand it off to a third property manager and say, \u201cHey, send me the report in a month,\u201d because that won\u2019t work out either. So do something in the middle. So you\u2019re going to want to have property management as\u2026 Again, whether that\u2019s going to be you hire an assistant to help you do it or you get somebody third-party.
You\u2019re also going to need contractors. I guess that\u2019s probably similar to single-family. However, if you\u2019re buying 10 units, you\u2019re going to need someone who probably has a little more bandwidth than the contractor that can handle one or two houses at a time. So make sure your contractor has the size and the ability to handle bigger jobs. You\u2019re going to need attorneys. Again, if you\u2019re syndicating, that\u2019s a whole separate attorney. You have, basically, a syndication attorney.<\/p>\n
They\u2019re not cheap.<\/p>\n
No. Typically, they\u2019re flat fee, and that flat fee can anywhere from $10,000 to $30,000 for syndication, and that gets back to the question like, \u201cOoh, at what point is syndication worth it?\u201d If you\u2019re just doing 10 units, it might not be worth it for the profit, unless you\u2019re using that as a stepping stone. That\u2019s exactly the perfect example of why because there\u2019s\u2026 Boom, 15 grand gone just to get the syndication paperwork done. You\u2019re also going to need an attorney to help negotiate and review loan documents and the purchase and sale agreement.
I know every state is a little different in single-family, but in California, when you buy a single-family, it\u2019s just title and escrow. We don\u2019t involve attorneys, and I know other states, I believe mostly on the East Coast, you got to sit down and have attorneys to handle everything, if I\u2019m correct. In multifamily, whether you\u2019re required to or not, actually, one of the biggest mistakes I see some people make is be their own attorney. Do not do that in the multifamily world. You will end up with some nasty clauses in your loan docs that you\u2019re not going to find out until way down the road, and you are going to wish you had spent the money on the attorney. So you want to have a good attorney.
You want to have good lenders, and I have actually found it most beneficial to have a really good loan broker, somebody who can take the needs of your property and your finances out and match it to the best loan for your business plan and what you\u2019re trying to do. You\u2019re going to need a really good insurance broker for the same reason. Insurance. I\u2019m sure most people listening have probably heard that has become a nightmare lately. I\u2019ve got actually friends who their portfolio, their annual insurance premium last year was $1 million. This year, it\u2019s $2.3 million. So, literally, their expenses went up 130% just on insurance.<\/p>\n
Let me guess. Was this in Texas?<\/p>\n
No. It was actually spread-<\/p>\n
In Florida?<\/p>\n
Yeah. Well, partially in Florida and partially several other states, but yeah, you\u2019re actually right. Florida and Texas are the two and California are the three main culprits driving the insurance problem. Again, not to scare anybody, the silver lining on that is the free market works. What\u2019s happening is insurance premiums are so high now that more carriers are coming back into the business because they can make so much money off premiums that most of the experts that I talk to now are saying that prices should level up and possibly even start coming down next year. Right? So you don\u2019t need to underwrite 60% increases every year for the next five years, so don\u2019t\u2026 Be careful with it, but don\u2019t let that stop you.
A good insurance broker. I\u2019m just trying to think. I\u2019m sure I\u2019ve missed a couple, but those are the key ones, and then the next question is typically, \u201cOkay. That\u2019s great, Andrew. How do I find all of these people?\u201d Referrals, referrals, referrals. Go on BiggerPockets Forums and say, \u201cHey, I\u2019m trying to buy 10 units in Dallas. Who else is invested in this area? Can you please connect me with your favorite lender, contractor, syndication attorney, et cetera?\u201d
Also, if you\u2019re buying a property, I\u2019m going to assume you\u2019re probably talking to a broker or agent of some kind. Ask that agent. Say, \u201cHey, if you were buying this, who would you want to hire to manage it for you?\u201d That\u2019s how I found our property management company that we\u2019ve partnered with for 12 years now. I literally asked the brokers, \u201cWho would you hire to manage this thing?\u201d The same couple names kept coming up over and over again. Do that for lenders. Do that for\u2026 \u201cHey, if you were buying this, what contractors would you use?\u201d Then, when you talk to the lender, say, \u201cHey, do you have a favorite attorney that you like to work with?\u201d Just do that whole circle of referrals. That is the fastest and most effective way to build a high-performing, high-quality team of the third-party people that you need to do this business.<\/p>\n
Another person that is a great resource, and I just recently put this together in the last year, is the code enforcement officer of that town or city. Especially if it\u2019s a smaller town, they have more\u2026 There\u2019s only one code enforcement officer, but anytime they go and do inspections of multifamily, so they\u2019re seeing what operators take care of the building, what property management is taking care of it, what tenants are happy, which ones are dissatisfied, and they\u2019ve actually become a wealth of knowledge for me as somebody who\u2019s picking out as to how well is this property management company.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I really like that tip. That\u2019s a good one, especially for the under 50-unit properties. The only thing I would add is if I was asking the code inspector, I would say, \u201cHey, I\u2019m considering buying something,\u201d and I definitely wouldn\u2019t be like, \u201cHey, I\u2019m buying this property at this address,\u201d because then they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, cool. Let me go look at it.\u201d<\/p>\n
Okay. So before we wrap up here, Andrew, I want to know one last question. Based on today\u2019s current market conditions, is there anything that you are doing to pivot today that maybe you didn\u2019t do last year or the year before?<\/p>\n
In some ways, yes. In some ways, no. I mean, we\u2019ve always had very strict criteria of what we do buy and what we don\u2019t buy. We\u2019ve always had pretty conservative leverage. We\u2019ve typically never gone above 75%, but some of the things that we have adjusted are instead of 75% leverage, now we might be 55% or 65%. So if it\u2019s a million-dollar property, you would be looking at getting a $600,000 loan, which is 60% instead of two years ago, maybe you would\u2019ve gone for $800,000. So taking lower leverage.
Also, we are looking at trying to purchase some properties all cash and getting no loan at all, and the reason for that is yes, it is harder to do because you got to raise that equity, and it\u2019s a bigger commitment in a lot of different ways. However, what has changed in the market now is these days, from a seller\u2019s perspective, the most important thing is how certain they can be that you as a buyer will close. If you can eliminate the risk of your loan blowing up, then that increases surety of close, and so that\u2019s going to increase the chance that, number one, you\u2019re getting it at a better deal from that seller. Two, what that does, it means you don\u2019t have any debt service to worry about. Your interest rate is not going to fluctuate. You don\u2019t have to worry about paying the mortgage, and then two, you can patiently wait until the market shifts, and it\u2019s a really good time to refinance, and you do it then. You\u2019re not forced to do anything.
So we\u2019re looking at buying\u2026 again, looking at deals all cash. Also, if you\u2019re looking at buying a property today, it was really popular the last few years to look at a two to three-year timeline. Don\u2019t do that. That business model is on the shelf for now. It would be very risky to say that you have to exit two to three years from now because who knows where we\u2019re going to be. Have a longer timeframe. So, typically, for us, we\u2019ve always looked at five years. Now, we\u2019re looking more towards 6, 7, and even 10 years because our best guess is the next two years might be a little turbulent, and then that is going to set up the next big bull market upcycle, and we want to sell well into that upcycle. So that\u2019s a few things as we\u2019re looking at lower debt, sometimes no debt, looking at longer hold times, but the fundamentals have not changed.<\/p>\n
Andrew, one last question before we let you go here, and it ties into that last point. You said that you\u2019re looking at potentially holding properties for up to 10 years. That\u2019s a decade. When I think about our rookie audience, I wonder if they might have challenges getting an investor to commit to a deal for up to 10 years. So if you were a rookie investor, how would you pitch a potential deal with a 10-year hold given that maybe you don\u2019t have that super strong track record yet?<\/p>\n
The investor that funded by far the biggest amount of my flips was a guy in his 70s. When I brought him that very first apartment syndication that was on a five-year timeframe, he looked at and said, \u201cYeah, Andrew, this looks great,\u201d but he goes, \u201cI\u2019ll probably be dead by then. I\u2019m not invested in that.\u201d So you\u2019re right on. It is definitely tougher to get people to invest for those longer timelines. There\u2019s not a silver bullet to it. What I would say is\u2026 or how I would address that if I was getting started is I would build the pro forma and the projection maybe on five years. I do think five years is fine.
One of the beautiful things about real estate is time typically heals all wounds. The longer you can wait, generally speaking, the better it gets. That\u2019s just how the US economy is set up. So what I would do is I would maybe focus on five years, but then set it up so that if for some reason in five years, it is either a bad time to sell or it\u2019s very clear in five years that if you keep holding, you\u2019ll make a whole lot more money, you have the option to do so. Right? That\u2019s actually something that we\u2019ve been very cognizant to do in our deals the last three years is maybe they were set up as five or six-year deals or even four-year, but we always made sure that the potential is there to hold longer if we either need to or want to.
I\u2019ll give a perfect example. We have one in the Florida Panhandle that we bought in 2015. Our pro forma was to sell it in 2020. We still have it, so it\u2019s going on eight years now, but that is because it makes so much money that all of the investors voted\u2026 We took a vote because doing something different than what we originally said, voted to keep. It was a unanimous vote, \u201cNo, let\u2019s keep this thing,\u201d even though it originally was five years. So that\u2019s how you end up getting a 10-year hold with investors who would otherwise never agree to 10 years is you buy and say, \u201cLook, our plan is five years.\u201d But then, if you buy it right, and operate it right, and do such a good job with it, it\u2019s not going to be hard to convince people to keep it even longer. Again, if your investor is like, \u201cNo, I really do want to get out,\u201d there\u2019s different ways to structure that without selling the property or hey, you know what? Sell the property. Put a check in the win column, and then move that money somewhere else.<\/p>\n
Not even with syndications, but that example works with private money too. If you are amortizing it over 10 years, maybe you do the loan callable instead of\u2026 that it\u2019s actually a balloon payment where they have to give so much notice. We\u2019ve done them where they have to give eight months notice in writing if they\u2019re going to call the loan or else it extends for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s a perfect example actually. So I have a small property that is not syndicated, and we did that very thing. In order to not have to put quite as much cash into it, we got a number of investors to do private notes. It was a two-year term, and then we said, \u201cHey, at the end of two years, the notes just go month to month.\u201d One of the investors said, \u201cYeah. I actually need my money now. Can you pay my note off?\u201d All of the other ones, \u201cYeah, we\u2019ll just let it keep going.\u201d But if we had said, \u201cHey, can you give us a five-year note?\u201d that would\u2019ve been a lot harder, right? But now that they\u2019re used to getting an ACH deposit in their account every month and there\u2019s nothing better to do with the money, everyone is like, \u201cYeah, we\u2019ll keep it.\u201d So do a good job, and the problem goes away.<\/p>\n
Well, Andrew, thank you so much for this mini masterclass on multifamily. Can you let everyone know where they can reach out to you and find out some more information about you?<\/p>\n
Yes. BiggerPockets Forums, of course. Please connect with me on BiggerPockets, and I am not a social media guy. However, I\u2019ve decided to slightly catch up with the rest of the world, and I am on LinkedIn now. So if you comment or respond, that actually is me posting and actually responding. So if you want to engage with different topics with me, then please do that on LinkedIn. Our website, just vpacq.com, short for Vantage Point Acquisitions. There\u2019s a couple of different ways to connect with us there, and I look forward to hopefully talking with you. For those of you who are only listening to this on audio, go check out the YouTube because Ashley and Tony are the most color-coordinated hosts I have ever seen on a podcast. They look professional and perfectly match their backgrounds, both of them. Mine looks like business barf on the wall, and they\u2019re perfectly coordinated, so.<\/p>\n
Well, hopefully, they go, and they watch this YouTube one because no other episode will be like that. Andrew, thank you so much for joining us. You can also find out more information about Andrew and get even deeper into his multifamily deals. You can go to episode 571. It is a great starting point on The Real Estate Podcast, but Andrew is a celebrity there, and you will find more episodes and more information on multifamily. If you would like to learn more about myself, or Tony, or today\u2019s guest, Andrew Cushman, please head to the description of this episode in YouTube or your favorite podcast platform to view the show notes.<\/p>\n
Well, Andrew, that was an awesome episode, man. Really, really appreciated that.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Thank you so much.<\/p>\n
It was fun talking to you guys, so.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s always cool when we can break down the meteor, more intimidating rookie topics for folks and make it seem more attainable.<\/p>\n
Hopefully. Hopefully, they\u2019ll get some value out of that, so.<\/p>\n
Yeah. No. It was super good, man.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m Ashley, @wealthfromrentals, and he\u2019s Tony, @tonijrobinson, on Instagram, and we will be back with another episode.<\/p>\n