\n<\/p>\n
Retirement investing<\/strong><\/a> is a crucial part of planning for <\/strong>financial freedom<\/strong><\/a>. While early retirement is a status that almost everyone would love to achieve, the second-best thing is standard retirement, where you can use your smart investments to make the later years of your life that much easier. But, oftentimes those who are born with a strong work ethic don\u2019t know when the right time to ease off retirement investing<\/strong> is. In some cases, even intelligent investors can find themselves with a lot of retirement income that can\u2019t be touched<\/strong> until decades later.<\/p>\n Jill <\/strong>is trying to end up with a future of financial flexibility<\/strong><\/a>. She wants to be able to travel the world<\/strong> with her family, leave her W2 job<\/strong> (if she feels like it), and invest more in assets that give her the power of choice<\/strong> today. She has a very good income, impressive retirement accounts, and wants to take her first step into <\/strong>real estate investing<\/strong><\/a>. She\u2019s planning on turning her primary residence into a short-term rental, while her family moves into the live in flip she\u2019s buying next.<\/p>\n This rental property income <\/strong>should give her and her family a cushion of passive income to rely on, but she\u2019ll need much more than this to become truly financially free. Scott and Mindy debate the \u201cinvest for later\u201d vs. \u201cinvest for now\u201d frames of mind, tackling which one will work best for Jill in her high-income but low passive cash flow<\/strong> situation.<\/p>\n Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Mindy: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Mindy: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Scott: Jill: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Mindy: Jill: Scott: Jill: Jill: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Jill: Jill: Mindy: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Scott: Jill: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Jill: Mindy: Mindy: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Scott: Scott: Jill: Jill: Scott: Scott: Scott: Scott: Mindy: Jill: Scott: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Jill: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Scott: Scott: Jill: Scott: Scott: Scott: Scott: Jill: Scott: Scott: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Mindy: Mindy: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Scott: Jill: Jill: Scott: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Jill: Scott: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Jill: Scott: Mindy: Jill: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Scott: Scott: Scott: Mindy: Scott: Mindy: \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Help us reach new listeners on iTunes<\/a>\u00a0by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds.\u00a0Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n Interested in learning more about today\u2019s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Check out our\u00a0<\/i>sponsor page<\/a><\/i>!<\/i><\/p>\n
Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast show number 310, Finance Friday edition, where we interview Jill, and talk about what to do with your primary residence after you move out.<\/p>\n
Now, I don\u2019t know if I just keep that going with my investments or I try to cashflow all these renovations as quick as I can and, I guess, scale back on the investment piece. So I guess, how do I balance the retirement accounts, the after tax brokerage account, 529s, all these other things we invest in with the real estate piece now?<\/p>\n
Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me as always is my real life actual human being never going to ask you to IM him about crypto cohost, Scott Trench.<\/p>\n
With me as always is my spamming me with a new intro, Mindy, every week, but seriously, the spammers on these Instagram things are nuts. Please know that me nor Mindy, nor BiggerPockets Money Instagrams, none of those accounts will actually reach out to you and then ask you for Bitcoin or any other types of money or whatever from that. Please just report the fake accounts if one of them happens to try to go after you.<\/p>\n
Yup, and feel free to send me a note or post a copy of it in the Facebook group, so that we can all report them and get that mess off of our sites. Thank you because I hate them. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else to introduce you to every money story because we truly, truly believe that financial freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you\u2019re starting.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate, start your own business or to make the decision between you selling and renting your home, we\u2019ll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards those dreams.<\/p>\n
Scott, I am super excited to talk to Jill today. She makes a good income. She has her expenses fairly under wraps. She is buying a second home and considering turning her first home into a short-term Airbnb.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I think it\u2019s a good discussion and it\u2019s a situation that probably a lot of people are going through. She has a good problem. She has a lot of equity in her primary residence and she needs to figure out how best to deploy that, whether it\u2019s by keeping it as a rental and generating income or redeploying it.<\/p>\n
I really like that you threw that out there, Scott, and gave her something to think about, \u201cHey, it seems like a no brainer, but maybe you could take this equity and this money that you have tied up in this house and do something else with it. Maybe you could redeploy it in a way that would generate even more income.\u201d I really like the way that you gave her things to think about.<\/p>\n
Before we bring in Jill, let\u2019s note that the contents of this podcast are informational in nature and are not legal or tax advice, and neither Scott nor I nor BiggerPockets is engaged in the provision of legal tax or any other advice. You should seek your own advice from professional advisors, including lawyers and accountants, regarding the legal tax and financial implications of any financial decision you contemplate.<\/p>\n
Jill and Joe are preparing to move to a new house that they plan to live and flip while turning their old home into a short or midterm rental. Debt is not Jill\u2019s friend. So there\u2019s a bit of anxiety surrounding this move. Even though she realizes that taking on this low interest debt can help her family realize their long-term goals, it\u2019s still weighing on her just a little bit. Joe is newly self-employed, so they\u2019re still navigating the fluctuating income while he stabilizes his new business. Jill, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast.<\/p>\n
Thank you. So excited to be here and actually talk to you guys live.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m super excited to have you. I am going to say that Jill lives in a medium cost of living area and in the Midwest. So that gives you a framework for where these finances and this information is coming from. Let\u2019s jump into your numbers. What do you make and where does it go?<\/p>\n
So I make 250 W-2 income. That\u2019s straight, I would say, biweekly income, but then I do get a fluctuating bonus. That can be anywhere from 50,000 up to 100,000 depending on what\u2019s going on. Then my husband has a new business that he started. He started it before COVID, but we had to put it on hold with COVID. We also were living abroad. So this is, 2022, his first year fully doing this. So it\u2019s between 1,000 per month and 5,000 a month. I think there will-<\/p>\n
You make 250K base salary plus.<\/p>\n
I make about 200, yeah, 200 base, and then plus bonus, which averages about 50K.<\/p>\n
Okay. Got it.<\/p>\n
Then my husband\u2019s around 1,000 to 5,000, I would say, per month. I think conservatively will profit about 30,000 this year.<\/p>\n
Great. This is all pre-tax.<\/p>\n
Yup.<\/p>\n
Awesome. So post-tax, we can plan on 175 to 200 maybe in post-tax dollars.<\/p>\n
Yeah. So I guess monthly, I get about $10,000 a month, and I take everything as much as I can out of my paycheck. So I\u2019m a very automated person. So I take my 401(k). I actually do my auto and home insurance through work because I have a group plan and it\u2019s discounted. I do a flexible spending account for dependent care. All of that is taken out of my paycheck before I actually get the money. So monthly, I have about 10,000 to work with.<\/p>\n
Okay. I want to pause here and praise you for that because that\u2019s awesome. You never see that money. When you take it out of your paycheck and you put it someplace else, that\u2019s money that you can\u2019t spend. I\u2019m saying spend in air quotes for those who are just listening and not watching on YouTube. You can watch on YouTube if you want to see all these fun faces that I make all the time we record, but this is money that you\u2019re not spending because you\u2019re not seeing it. So it\u2019s not there.<\/p>\n
I think that\u2019s really, really cool when you can do that. I don\u2019t know that I have that option to pay my insurance, but there are things that I have pulled out of my paycheck ahead of time, and there are things you can have pulled out of your paycheck. If this is an option for you, if your expenses are a problem, if your spending is your big issue that you\u2019re trying to tackle, see what you can pull out of your paycheck before you have to spend it because that\u2019s a check you\u2019re not writing. I\u2019m so old. I write checks. That\u2019s a check you\u2019re not writing to pay the bill, but that\u2019s also money that\u2019s not available for you to spend. So it never hits your bank account and maybe goes someplace else before it gets to where it needs to go. So I love that idea.<\/p>\n
Yeah, and there\u2019s a huge discount if you do payroll deduction. So I actually talked to the insurance to switch it at one point and it would go up $1,000 or something. So they really like that. If it\u2019s through a payroll deduction, they give you a huge discount. So if your company offers it, try to go for it because it\u2019s also a group plan so they give you lots of discounts.<\/p>\n
That is an awesome tip. We were just saying, we learn something every show and that is awesome. Okay, Scott. Now, we got to talk after the show, maybe HR. Anyway, okay, let\u2019s look at-<\/p>\n
Well, let\u2019s go through expenses next and say where\u2019s all that money going. How much are you spending per month and where is it going?<\/p>\n
So right now, we did make an offer on another house, but I won\u2019t talk about that yet. So our current house that we live in, we have a mortgage. With the mortgage and taxes, it\u2019s 1690. Childcare is 1200. I give a decent amount of donations to different organizations per month. So that\u2019s about 300. Gas and car maintenance is 150. Medical is 350. I have an HSA. So I\u2019m a big fan of the high deductible plan. So I try to cashflow anything we have going on with doctor\u2019s appointments or prescriptions, and then just save the HSA. Clothes, kids\u2019 activities, personal care, pets are about 300 per month.<\/p>\n
I know this is bad, but groceries and eating out is about 2,000 total per month for a family of four. All the home stuff, we do have someone who cleans our house, the lawn, garbage pickup, recycling, house items is about 600 a month. Then we have a few other bills, cell phones, streaming, which is 300. I\u2019m down to one student loan, which is 160 per month, and we\u2019re only keeping that just in case Biden forgives loans. We will try to take advantage of that, but it\u2019s low interest. Travel is 400 per month. Then I do have a few investments that I put 200 into a 529 for my girls, and then another about 1,000 in a brokerage, after tax brokerage account.<\/p>\n
Awesome. So where are your assets and liabilities? How much cash do you have and what do you invest in?<\/p>\n
So I have a 401(k) through work, which is 440,000. Most of it\u2019s pre-taxed. Recently through listening to your show, I switched to Roth. So about 10% of it is Roth now. I also have a Roth IRA that\u2019s 40,000, a rollover IRA that\u2019s another 40,000. I just set up a SEP IRA because of my husband\u2019s self-employment. So we only have $650 in there, but we just started it last month. I have an HSA that has 10,000 in it, 529 plans for both my girls that total about 15,000 total. After tax brokerage is 33,000. Then I have about 60,000 in cash, and that\u2019s going to go towards a down payment on a house. Then our current house mortgage is 200,000. We have about 250 equity into it and we just refinanced our mortgage last year for a 15-year mortgage and it\u2019s 1.875 interest, which is unbelievable to me.<\/p>\n
Awesome.<\/p>\n
Then we have two cars that are paid off.<\/p>\n
Great. So what is your total net worth here?<\/p>\n
I didn\u2019t total it up. So math is not my strong suit.<\/p>\n
Okay. So we got \u2026 Let\u2019s do some quick math. We\u2019ve got what? 500, 520, 550-ish in retirement accounts. We\u2019ve got 565 retirement accounts and 529 plans. We got 33K after tax, $60,000 in cash, and 250 in home equity. So what is that? A little under a million dollars in net worth.<\/p>\n
I have 839.<\/p>\n
My used cars are apparently very valuable these days. So maybe that gets me up higher.<\/p>\n
Great. Awesome. Okay. So what\u2019s the best way we can help you today? What are your goals?<\/p>\n
So I mean, we have had a lot of debt. So graduating, my husband and I had between the two of us probably about 90,000 in student loan debt. So we\u2019ve been plagued with student loan debt for a very long time, and we finally got to the point that we got completely, pretty much out of debt and we can really take any bonuses I get and my husband\u2019s income and just use that towards investments.<\/p>\n
We\u2019ve been wanting to get into real estate for a very long time, but because of the debt, I was never really comfortable doing this. So my last bonus that I got, I paid off all of my student loans, most of my husbands, and we also had a construction loan on this house that we had to make our HVAC. Well, we didn\u2019t have an HVAC so we had to put one in. We had to make our house a bit more energy efficient. So I paid that off as well.<\/p>\n
So I finally got to the point I\u2019m comfortable buying a second house, and we want to convert this house into an Airbnb. We live about a mile and a half from a very, very popular college football stadium, which is in walking distance. So people during those six home games, it\u2019s about $1,000 a night on average that people get for their houses.<\/p>\n
Wow.<\/p>\n
So even if we just rent for the tailgating for the home games, plus graduation and some of the big events, we think we could profit about $30,000 on this house. Our house right now is not in the best. We bought it before we had kids. So we didn\u2019t think about neighborhoods, sidewalks, busy roads. So it\u2019s not in the greatest place for us. We want to be in a neighborhood, but it\u2019s really cheap here. We live right outside of the very popular town. So our taxes are lower. So I\u2019ve been really reluctant to buy another house, but I think now with my debt situation, I\u2019m comfortable.<\/p>\n
So we found a great house, one that needs a lot of work, but the bones are really good. I actually got advice from one of your recent shows about it\u2019s a house that had no pictures online, just the front of the house, and we went to look at it and it\u2019s dated, but the bones are really good. It\u2019s all cosmetic work that needs to be done, and nobody was looking at the house. It was horribly marketed. So we made a low ball offer on it and they took it.<\/p>\n
So now, we have the second house. So we think we got a really good value in it. We can renovate it, live in it, which it has a neighborhood, and I think it\u2019s the right place for us to be, and then try to really make profit out of the Airbnb on this house, but it\u2019s still really scary to me to go there, but I still think all the planning and all the numbers work. We just have to go for it. So I guess, yeah, I just need advice on how to get started and how to make the most out of going in this direction.<\/p>\n
Jump in with both feet and don\u2019t look back. No, that\u2019s awful advice. The video you\u2019re referring to is my leftovers video, where I talk about in this market nothing is sitting around except every once in a while something is sitting around and it could be a disaster or it could back up the train tracks or it could be overlooked, and those are the properties that you look at.<\/p>\n
I just today closed on a property for a client that was a leftover that is going to be gorgeous in about 15 hours of elbow grease. That\u2019s probably what you\u2019re going to be in too, maybe a little bit more than 15 hours of elbow grease, but I love a good live and flip.<\/p>\n
I think a little bit more, but our inspection was yesterday. The guy couldn\u2019t believe that everything works. Appliances that were 50 years old still work, but the roof is redone. The HVAC is brand new. All the big stuff was done. It\u2019s just shag carpets and wallpaper.<\/p>\n
Oh, my good. Okay. Oh.<\/p>\n
Well, let\u2019s take a step back here. Your current home is going to become the investment property.<\/p>\n
Correct.<\/p>\n
Right? Let\u2019s start with analyzing that one. So the mortgage is 1690 per month, which you have a great rate.<\/p>\n
She can rent it out six weekends a year for $1,000 a night, approved as a short-term rental stamp.<\/p>\n
So that\u2019s 12 grand for 12 nights, 1,000 times 12. Okay. So that is a big chunk of your mortgage.<\/p>\n
Correct.<\/p>\n
There\u2019s other opportunities. It\u2019s not just those, but those are the big ones. So I don\u2019t like jumping in with both feet and not really running the numbers, but with this property, if you can rent it for $1,000 a night and your mortgage is 1650 a month or 1690 a month, you\u2019re going to rent it for two nights for the weekend easily, maybe three nights, but probably two night minimum. That is a no brainer to just look at that and be like, \u201cOkay. There are other opportunities as well. I will, at the very least, be able to cover my mortgage on this,\u201d but you\u2019re going to be able to do way more than just cover your mortgage on this.<\/p>\n
There are setup costs. I mean, you have to furnish the whole thing and that\u2019s something that I think that a lot of people who are considering short-term rentals don\u2019t necessarily think about, and that\u2019s going to be, Scott, have you set up a short-term rental yet?<\/p>\n
Well, I think we start with, Jill, have you analyzed this property? What is your analysis? We probably have more than, \u201cHey, I can get a thousand bucks on six big weekends.\u201d What is the income you think that the property will generate? What are the expenses? Have you run that analysis?<\/p>\n
So my husband did some analysis. Yeah. He got on your website. He\u2019s run a few numbers. So he thinks that we can have monthly, if we rented it out, 1800 a month if we did between home games, all the big events at this university that\u2019s very close to us. Then we\u2019ve also dabbled with sabbatical homes. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve ever heard of this.<\/p>\n
Right. How much per month?<\/p>\n
1800.<\/p>\n
1800 per month in income, in short-term rental income.<\/p>\n
Yeah. This is after taking out the mortgage, having extra costs for renovations or fixing up the house. He thinks it can cash flow 1800.<\/p>\n
What would be the gross short-term rental income before expenses?<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know. He ran all the numbers. So I don\u2019t have it in front of me.<\/p>\n
Okay. I\u2019m going to put in 3,500 as a placeholder there. I\u2019m going to say you\u2019re assuming you can get $3,500 a month, and then 18 of that will pass through as cashflow per month after your mortgage expenses, after cleaning fees or maintenance repairs, all that kind of stuff probably with \u2026 I\u2019ll assume for now that we\u2019ve got conservative allocations there for capex, handyman expenses, those types of things in there as well. Okay.<\/p>\n
You have $250,000 in equity and you\u2019ll be generating about 20,000 to 25,000 in cashflow per year with 1800 per month in cashflow. So that\u2019s not bad. That\u2019s a reasonable investment opportunity. Let me ask you this. How long have you lived in that property?<\/p>\n
We are going on 10 years now.<\/p>\n
Okay. Would you buy another identical property and do the exact same thing with $250,000 down?<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know. This house is a difficult house. So to get it to this point, we had to do a lot of work on it, I guess. So I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s on septic. It\u2019s well water. There\u2019s a lot of things that we had to go through first time home buyer education to get it to the point that it is today. So I probably wouldn\u2019t go for this exact house, but something similar.<\/p>\n
Okay. So here\u2019s why I\u2019m asking this is because you have 250,000 in equity that you can sell and tap into right now tax-free. You will lose that advantage if you move out of the place after two years. So my bias, in general, sorry, three years, that\u2019s right. I have to live there two over the last five years. Thank you, Mindy, for correcting me there. So my bias is almost always to have a strong preference towards selling a primary residence rather than keeping it and reinvesting or keeping it as a rental.<\/p>\n
I think your situation might be different, and this is where I\u2019m going to have to \u2026 because you have a 1.875% mortgage, but you\u2019re on a 15-year term. So I wonder if you replicated this exact same project with another property if you wouldn\u2019t have approximately the same cashflow because your payment will be smaller, but you\u2019ll have a higher interest rate, for example, with it.<\/p>\n
So I think there\u2019s some puts and takes here that make this really interesting from an analysis standpoint, whether to keep an Airbnb or sell because you could just sell and then redeploy into an even more ideal Airbnb investment, for example, and you get your gain out now tax-free and get a new basis to start with the new project with.<\/p>\n
Our reason for keeping it is this side of town has continued to develop. So when we bought it, it was farmland. People who had been here for 70 years live off the land type neighbors who shoot squirrels in the backyard, but we have \u2026 Definitely, the area is developed. So they\u2019ve built really fancy condos on one side of us that are going for $600,000. They\u2019re building a very nice pub in a historical barn across the street from us. So we keep thinking this side of town is developing more and more, and we really like this town.<\/p>\n
There\u2019s not a ton of properties that you can have. The tax is this low in this location that, yeah, you have the same value out of it that we have here. So we\u2019ve always wanted to hang on to the property because we actually have a decent amount of property as well. We have about an acre. So we wanted to see how this side of town developed, and I think our equity will keep going up on the house.<\/p>\n
Absolutely. What I\u2019m trying to say, though, is you have 250,000 in equity in this property. You\u2019ve done well, and it sounds like you believe it\u2019ll be a reasonable investment going forward. Your problem is that in three years from now, if you sell the property, you\u2019re going to lose. Right now, you have 250,000 in equity that you can harness and sell, probably all gain, but let\u2019s assume it\u2019s all gain. If you sell it in three years from now, you\u2019re going to pay tax, 25% capital gains tax on that, and that\u2019s going to cost you $62,500, right?<\/p>\n
If you sell this property and then redeploy it into an identical investment property down the block, you\u2019re going to get a new mortgage and reset, but you\u2019re going to harness that gain and have a new basis that you\u2019re going to take advantage of that tax break with it.<\/p>\n
So that\u2019s what I\u2019m talking about here and that\u2019s the decision you have to make. From there, we can say, \u201cOkay. My property is good for Airbnb.\u201d We know that. We\u2019re happy with that. You\u2019ve obviously done the analysis and you\u2019ve got good, but can you do better or about the same with a nearby property, for example, right? I think that\u2019s your challenge that you need to go through here because your strategy might be the right one.<\/p>\n
It just might be, \u201cYou know what? If I actually optimize \u2026 I bought this house to optimize for my family in our situation, and it happens to be a good Airbnb, but this one, a few blocks down the road, is actually even better from an Airbnb perspective with current market values, and for the next 10 years, I\u2019ll be better off with that, make more return, executing the same strategy but just taking advantage of my tax break.\u201d That\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to get at with these questioning, with these questions.<\/p>\n
So you said well water, and I don\u2019t know how sulfury your well water is, but when you say well water, I think sulfur water. I\u2019m wondering how much of an attraction that is going to be as an Airbnb. Is there any plan to bring city water to the property?<\/p>\n
Not at this moment, but we do have lots of filters on it. So you don\u2019t notice it now, but it took us a while to figure out the right combination of filters and softeners to get it.<\/p>\n
I grew up on well water. Do people not like well water?<\/p>\n
Yeah, we drink it.<\/p>\n
No, it\u2019s disgusting.<\/p>\n
No.<\/p>\n
Oh, it\u2019s totally normal for me.<\/p>\n
If you didn\u2019t grow up on it, and there\u2019s different kinds of well water. No, you\u2019re weird. There\u2019s different kinds of well water, Scott, and some of them are like, \u201cOh, okay. I didn\u2019t even know this was well water,\u201d and some of them are like, \u201cIs there a dead mouse in this water?\u201d It\u2019s disgusting. My grandma had that kind of water. I never wanted to drink water at her house because it was just so gross.<\/p>\n
I always look forward to having a big glass of water at home, parents\u2019 house.<\/p>\n
You probably have. Yeah, there was something dead in my grandma\u2019s well, I think. Anyway, yeah, so if you\u2019ve figured it out, I would just be really, really sensitive to any reviews that you\u2019re getting about that, and maybe have a trusted friend come over and taste that water, but like Scott is saying, you didn\u2019t say that this is \u2026 I just always assumed that it\u2019s in the middle of town when people are talking about this. It\u2019s got an acre of land. Who\u2019s going to take care of that acre of land. What is going on with that acre of land? Since it is near a place that holds football games, are people going to host big parties at your Airbnb? Could you be making your neighbors really upset?<\/p>\n
If she got an acre, then she\u2019s got a big plot of land and they can throw even bigger parties. She can charge more.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Absolutely.<\/p>\n
They\u2019re very like \u201cIt\u2019s your land. You can do what you want\u201d kind of person.<\/p>\n
Okay. Okay. That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n
They\u2019re shooting squirrels in the backyard. So it\u2019s no problem. Yeah, no, we\u2019re right over the border into the township let\u2019s say, and it changes pretty fast, but because this town is so popular, it\u2019s spilling out this direction. So there really is no more land in the town. Everybody has to buy land out here. So that\u2019s why we think it\u2019s valuable, but I think a lot of those concerns you have are something to consider.<\/p>\n
I think you got a great thing here I would consider. I would sit down and do the exercise and let your math tell you what it needs to, but I would consider selling the property, harvesting your capital gain, and then buying one or maybe two additional Airbnbs that are perfect for your strategy, right? Maybe there are other properties nearby even closer that don\u2019t have a yard to maintain and all this other stuff and your yield goes up even further with that if you\u2019re able to redeploy the equity into that. Just go through the exercise. You may determine, \u201cLet\u2019s keep it,\u201d with that, but that\u2019s a big lever in your financial position right now.<\/p>\n
Yeah. The other thing is within the town, you\u2019re not allowed to have Airbnbs unless they\u2019re part of your house, unless you\u2019re living there. So that\u2019s another thing. So there\u2019s a limitation on how many Airbnbs can be in this town, which is maxed out, and now, you have to be living in the house. You can rent part of your property. So it\u2019s actually-<\/p>\n
So if you\u2019re one block away from the town, you\u2019re not subject to that law and you have-<\/p>\n
Correct. So I have some loopholes, but yeah, I totally get what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n
Another thing to think about is the cost of furnishing it. I would definitely go after the college clientele and the college decor, which should be actively available in thrift stores and garage sales in and around. I don\u2019t know if you guys have, do you call it hippie Christmas where all the college kids throw all their stuff away at the end of school?<\/p>\n
Yes. Graduation weekend is one of our favorites. We get lots of new stuff.<\/p>\n
A long thin table. Okay. Great.<\/p>\n
Beer pong tables, yup. We got it covered.<\/p>\n
Perfect. Well, great. So let\u2019s talk about the new property that you guys are buying and your intentions with that one. Is that just going to be your primary residence or is there longer term plans for that?<\/p>\n
For now, yeah. Well, I mean, it\u2019s a little bit of a question mark. I don\u2019t like to be locked into places very long. So I mean, we\u2019ve gone abroad twice now. If it was up to me, I would probably never settle into one place, but I think for my family, they need stability. So I want to get to a neighborhood, but I\u2019m not sure if I want to stay there forever.<\/p>\n
So our idea was to buy this house, renovate it, make it either sellable or rentable, either one. We were open to either. Live there for the two years and then either rent it or sell it and then move to the next property or abroad or wherever we want to live at that point.<\/p>\n
Can\u2019t argue with the live and flip. Sounds like you\u2019ve really done your work and it\u2019s mostly cosmetics. You\u2019ll be able to move through it really quickly. Mindy is an example of how profitable that can be.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m going to change your mind a little bit and say you only have to live there for one year if you are going to rent it out. You have to live there for, well, you don\u2019t have to live there, you have to live there for two years to get all of the capital gains exclusions fully tax-free, but if you\u2019re going to rent it out, it doesn\u2019t have to be a full two years. It can just be one year.<\/p>\n
Can you move in and then immediately rent it out for six months while you travel the world, that\u2019s still your primary residence, your mail goes there, then come back and spend the next six month? Does that technically meet the requirements of that being your primary residence during that period?<\/p>\n
I would not say to do this because that sounds a whole lot like mortgage fraud. It has to be your intent to live there, and maybe you could have a roommate, but if you rent the entire house out, then you have no place to live and therefore it isn\u2019t your primary residence.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Obviously, we don\u2019t want to do anything illegal. I\u2019m just asking the question because I know that some, I have friends and family, for example, who live abroad and they need a US residence because they need to pay taxes in the US and get their mail to the US and stuff. So one of these individuals literally rents a place nearby to be his house while he is abroad.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s not mortgage fraud because he\u2019s renting.<\/p>\n
Fair enough. Yeah. I don\u2019t know the answer to it.<\/p>\n
Spare bedroom.<\/p>\n
Just something to explore. Yeah.<\/p>\n
I could rent him a house.<\/p>\n
Maybe you can have your cake and eat it, too, as long as you\u2019re traveling or vacationing for a portion of the year and not living in these other places and are there for the most of the year.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Well, I think she just needs to have a place to come back to. So if she rents the entire house out, then she doesn\u2019t have a place to come back to. Whereas if she rents one bedroom out, she has a place to come back to.<\/p>\n
\u2026 or if it\u2019s prepared for short-term rental.<\/p>\n
Yeah. You can short-term rent your house out. You happen to not be there so you\u2019re making money while you\u2019re gone. That\u2019s different. Let\u2019s see. Yeah. Let\u2019s talk about this new house. You have basically cosmetic stuff to do. That\u2019s very exciting. The big things are done. That\u2019s super exciting because, A, it\u2019s really expensive with inflation and, B, you can\u2019t find anybody to work on anything. So the fact that you have all the big stuff done, I mean, anybody can install flooring. It\u2019s not that hard.<\/p>\n
Yeah. So it\u2019s mostly floors, walls. The kitchen\u2019s dated, but actually, everything works in it. So it is usable. It\u2019s just we probably want to get, yeah, just facelift so it looks a bit more updated, but other than that, the outside\u2019s nice. When they did things in this house, they did it high end. The windows are all Anderson windows from seven years ago. There\u2019s no drafts in the house, no creaks in the house. It\u2019s pretty unbelievable, and the neighborhood\u2019s really nice. So yeah, I actually am worried we fall in love with it and never leave, actually, which was not originally the plan.<\/p>\n
Well, you have to live someplace. If you like where you live, that\u2019s great.<\/p>\n
Yup, but we have an out if we want it, I suppose.<\/p>\n
I think it\u2019s interesting. I know this is a side note, but I think it\u2019s interesting that they didn\u2019t get any interest on this house. You said there were no pictures up on the MLS. I wonder if they went with an agent who doesn\u2019t offer full service in exchange for a discounted price for the agent agreement and then ended up costing themselves a lot of money because nobody came to see the house. It sounds like a case of what is it jumping over dollars to save pennies.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I mean, we\u2019ve given offers to other houses and it\u2019s crazy in this area. I mean, it\u2019s down to cash offers, no inspection, and we\u2019ve lost multiple other houses that we just weren\u2019t willing to wave inspections on old houses. This house, there was another offer, but it was an investor and they wanted to go with a family that\u2019s going to actually live in the house, but we had the inspection. We didn\u2019t wave that. Yeah. We made an offer 10% below listing, which apparently the whole realtor office was shocked and celebrated that this went through. It\u2019s the first below offer acceptance that they\u2019ve had in a year. So pretty proud that we got it.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s an awesome, awesome story because in this market, yeah, nobody is doing that.<\/p>\n
Yeah, but it definitely was, I mean, we found a new realtor, so we had a realtor showing us houses that really didn\u2019t know anything about investments and we couldn\u2019t really get any good information. I happen to run into someone at my daughter\u2019s preschool who flips houses and she has seven rentals in town. Within her first three houses she showed me, we made two offers on them. So she knew exactly what we were looking for. She knew the houses that have value in them. So really, finding a good realtor I think makes all the difference.<\/p>\n
Yes.<\/p>\n
If I can give a plug for realtors.<\/p>\n
Yes, you can. You should. Finding a great one is the key to your investing success, the key to your purchasing success. You can still find deals in this market. Now, you can\u2019t find deals in this market the day they come on the market. This is a leftover property and it sat there for a while, and the reason that it sat there is because they didn\u2019t get a good real estate agent, and that\u2019s not your fault. That\u2019s their fault. They should have chosen somebody else. That\u2019s exactly what happened with the property that we closed today is that the listing agent didn\u2019t insist that they clean the house. It was so filthy.<\/p>\n
Well, I think your real estate approach is awesome. You\u2019ve made hundreds of thousands of dollars in your primary residence. You got a great option as an Airbnb. That seems pretty well thought out. I do think you should go through the exercise of at least looking to see what it would look like to sell and redeploy into similar properties, for example, and think about that tax hit, how that would work over a five or 10-year period because you may be able to get what you\u2019re looking for there without that, but it may be that the nuances of your house are perfect being just over the township line and enabling you to Airbnb and having a perfect thing there.<\/p>\n
So that may be great. It may be an exception to that where you should keep the house. Your new strategy of live and flip, can\u2019t argue with that. It sounds like you really did a lot of research and found exactly what you\u2019re looking for. So I think that\u2019s awesome. Is there another part of your finances or your strategy that you\u2019d like to talk about besides the real estate today?<\/p>\n
Well, I think, I mean, my strategy before the real estate was just slow and steady, I guess, investing in my retirement, maxing it out as much as I could. We did start the brokerage account because I feel like all my money was tied up in retirement that I couldn\u2019t access until I was a certain age, but now, I don\u2019t know if I just keep that going with my investments or I try to cashflow all these renovations as quick as I can and, I guess scale back on the investment piece. So I guess, how do I balance the retirement accounts, the after tax brokerage account, 529s, all these other things we invest in with the real estate piece now?<\/p>\n
Great. I think if you\u2019re going to have a rental property, the vacancy is going to kill you from it. So I think you make sure that you can move into your property, the new one, and that your current one is able to be rented out, and that\u2019s the first priority because you\u2019re going to be losing 3,500 a month or whatever your gross rent is every month that that place is vacant. So you have no choice there. That has to be your, I think, your top financial priority.<\/p>\n
Once that\u2019s done, I think you have, it sounds like, the luxury of going right down the stack of maxing out your 401(k), maxing out your HSA, maybe contributing to other retirement accounts. Your husband has a business so there are options to really stock away a lot of money in pre-tax retirement accounts like a self-directed IRA.<\/p>\n
So I think those are all options to you, but I would also observe that the bulk of your position is currently in retirement accounts, and then currently primary home equity is soon to be rental home equity. So you\u2019re not able to really access any of that except for the 250 in your house, which is why I think there\u2019s a big decision there for you to sit down and do that analysis.<\/p>\n
So I think it\u2019s a matter of what you want. Generally speaking, we hear people in a situation similar to yours that parallels yours saying, \u201cI want more flexibility,\u201d in a general sense. If you want that, then you\u2019re going to have to make trade offs by not putting quite as much into the retirement accounts as you are capable of right now, paying taxes now, and generating a liquidity with that.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I mean, that was my worry because I\u2019ve been working in corporate jobs since a long time. It feels like 20 years, since I was 20, and it\u2019s exhausting, and I work pretty crazy hours. Eventually, I would like to have the flexibility that if I don\u2019t want to work something as intense as I am today, I can do that, whether that\u2019s scaling back and doing part-time or consulting or something more entrepreneurial. I want to have that option. So that\u2019s why I wanted to diversify and have this rental income as well that I can access some of the money now instead of waiting till I\u2019m 59 and a half.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I think you have to look at it and say, \u201cOkay. Let\u2019s say five years from now, where do I want to be?\u201d You\u2019re going to generate probably $100,000 in investible income after your expenses per year over the next couple of years, right? Right now, huge percentages of that are going to go into your 401(k), Roth IRA, your rollover IRA, all of those different types of things. It looks like maybe, I don\u2019t know, 40 or 50 is going to go into your after tax stuff. So that\u2019s going to give you 250 in cash that you\u2019ll build.<\/p>\n
So by that point, you\u2019ll have $600,000, $700,000 in assets outside of your retirement accounts in real estate and investments if things compound and go reasonably well, right? I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s flexibility in your situation. I don\u2019t think you\u2019re going to feel comfortable like, \u201cEh, I\u2019m going to stop working now with that,\u201d based on you\u2019re spending with that.<\/p>\n
So I think you should back into that and say, \u201cWhat would flexibility look like to me in five years? Is it a million in after tax investments? Is it a million and a half? Is it whatever? What does that look like? Is my position backing me into that?\u201d I think that will involve hard trade offs about how much you contribute to retirement accounts versus how much you put into real estate versus how much you put into after tax brokerage versus how much you put into cash because you have plenty of income, but you just can\u2019t go quite all the way down in the stack and max out everything in your pre-tax or towns and then have so much leftover that you can still have financial freedom outside of those right now.<\/p>\n
Okay. So I have a little exercise based on your 401(k) only. The rule of 72 says that, essentially, your investments will double every eight years. This is rule of thumb. It\u2019s not guaranteed. It\u2019s not set in stone. Past performance is not indicative of future gains. All the disclaimers abound, but in 2022, your balance is $440,000. In 2030, your balance will be roughly $880,000. In 2038, your balance will be roughly $1,760,000. In 2046, your balance will be $3,520,000, and in 2054, in what, 32 years, your balance will be $7 million roughly in your 401(k), assuming you don\u2019t put any more into it, assuming the same returns that we\u2019ve seen historically. That\u2019s a lot of money. Now, you\u2019re getting into RMD territory. That\u2019s just if you don\u2019t put anything else in there. Do you have a company match?<\/p>\n
Yes, a very good one.<\/p>\n
I would continue to put in, if I was in your position, I would continue to put in to get the entire company match. If that is you have to contribute over the course of the year, I would stagger it out over the course of the year. Because you want to invest in real estate, I might pull back a little bit in the 401(k) so that I could invest in real estate as well.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t think that you are set in stone in your 401(k). I would still, I mean, personally, I would continue to invest all. I\u2019m still maxing out my 401(k). Did we ask how old you are? I don\u2019t think we asked how old you are.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m 40.<\/p>\n
40. Okay. So I\u2019m 50, and I\u2019m still maxing out my 401(k) just because there are ways to get to it before you are 55 or 65. The Mad Scientist has a really great article about accessing your retirement funds early. I\u2019ll link to that in the show notes and I\u2019ll email it to you when we\u2019re finished here, but there\u2019s lots of ways to access your retirement funds, the Roth conversion ladder. The 72T is at the separate but equal payments. He\u2019s got three or four different options, including just taking it out early and paying the penalty.<\/p>\n
I just still like that original house as a Airbnb with all of the stipulations that you have. It is so close. There aren\u2019t a lot of competition so you would have a lot of demand for it. I think that perhaps your husband\u2019s ideas that $3,500 is the income is maybe a little bit low. Always better to run the numbers with conservative because if he\u2019s right, great, it\u2019s still cash flows. If he\u2019s wrong and he\u2019s bringing in more money, \u201cWell, oh, shucks, I brought in more money than I thought I was going to.\u201d Who\u2019s going to say no to that? \u201cOh, no, don\u2019t pay me because that\u2019s too much for this month.\u201d<\/p>\n
So I think there\u2019s a lot of great options, but it comes down to \u2026 We\u2019ve recorded a couple of shows this week and we\u2019ve been using a fun little P word, a fun little four-letter word called plan. So I think it takes some time to sit down and talk about your financial plan, what is it that you want. When do you want to retire? When do you and your husband want to retire? Is it in five years? How much money do you want to have in whatever time? Let\u2019s call it five years. How much money do you want to have in five years? Then you can step it back and say, \u201cOkay. So in five years, we want this. Then we have to step back to these are the money moves that we need to make now,\u201d or 10 years or 20 years or whatever it is, but sitting down and having a plan will help.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s not a five-minute plan. It\u2019s not a come up with it in five minutes sort of thing. It\u2019s not even a one day plan. Just start having the discussion with him, \u201cWhat are you thinking about? What am I thinking about? Let\u2019s get on the same page. Let\u2019s figure out how to work backwards from that,\u201d and then move forward towards that goal and continue thinking about it, continue fine tuning it and honing it depending on, because sometimes the stock market\u2019s going to be down 15% in one quarter.<\/p>\n
Yeah. It\u2019s rough looking at my accounts. Real estate looks-<\/p>\n
Don\u2019t look at them.<\/p>\n
I try not to, but it\u2019s been bad.<\/p>\n
Yes. I hear you. I hear you. I just don\u2019t look at them, but I hear all these people talking about, \u201cOh, it\u2019s down, it\u2019s down.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, I\u2019m not investing for tomorrow morning, so I don\u2019t need to look at them right now.\u201d<\/p>\n
What else can we help you with today?<\/p>\n
No. I think it\u2019s this whole planning piece. I think we were just overloaded in retirement accounts, at least in my opinion, and I felt like we couldn\u2019t access them. So I feel good that we\u2019re moving more towards the real estate piece. I guess just planning the next five years, 10 years, 15 years. I mean, we always said 15 years we would try to retire. All of our parents are in their 65, 66 and still working full-time with no real intent to retire, and we don\u2019t really want to do that.<\/p>\n
We really want to, when we\u2019re 55, be able to scale back. I mean, our kids will be in college. We have lived abroad twice. I want to continue to live abroad and this time get to enjoy it instead of working the whole time. So I mean, I think my husband wants to make sure we enjoy today and I\u2019m like, \u201cJust shoot and do what we need to do to prepare for 55 so we can really completely be financially free and do what we want to do.\u201d So it\u2019s just balancing those two things, I think, and how to do that.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I think Mindy\u2019s advice is spot on. Put together a plan. Say, \u201cHere\u2019s where I want to be in three years. Here\u2019s where I want to be in five years. Here\u2019s where I want to be in 10. Here\u2019s where I want to be in 15. Here\u2019s a portfolio that is supportive of that, and my current path is pushing me here. What adjustments do I need to make to get to exactly where I want to be backing into that portfolio?\u201d Let\u2019s say it\u2019s two and a half million bucks in 12 years to cut three years off of your 15 with that, right? \u201cWhat\u2019s what\u2019s that portfolio look like? Probably I\u2019m going to be mostly in retirement accounts,\u201d if that\u2019s the case because you\u2019re going to be close to that 59 and a half age point. You only need to bridge it for a handful of years, less than a decade.<\/p>\n
So you can go heavy into retirement accounts if that\u2019s the plan and continue doing that. As long as you\u2019re putting 30%, 40%, 50% of that cashflow into your after tax brokerage accounts, real estate, those types of things. I think you\u2019ll probably be able to make it and have a strong cash position. So if it was five years, we need to really shift that, though, and we need to really pull it out the retirement accounts and into stuff that you can access right now, but it\u2019s all about what that plan looks like.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I can\u2019t get my head around five years, I guess, coming from a family that don\u2019t think vacation days or anything. They\u2019ve never taken them. They\u2019re going to die working. 55 to me seems very early.<\/p>\n
You can make a step change, function change in your finances in five years with intent and grind, especially with your income.<\/p>\n
Yeah. True.<\/p>\n
I could see a situation. How\u2019s this for five years, right? You are going to generate $500,000 in investible liquidity from your job and income and the spread there. Your husband is just starting a business, right? Probably your idea is that business is not going to be terrible and generate very little income for the next three to five years.<\/p>\n
No. It\u2019s doing pretty well.<\/p>\n
You\u2019re probably starting it because you think it will do something positive over a period of time. Okay. I\u2019m sitting here in five years. I\u2019ve generated $500,000 in investible liquidity, bought a couple of rental properties and some after tax stocks, continue to take the match in the 401(k). Now, my net net worth is sitting from 800. It\u2019s at 1.3 million. Plus, I get whatever I\u2019m adding to the pile from the business, right? Things may look very different from a five-year perspective of you\u2019re intentional about this as a goal from that point in time.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s true. It seems aggressive, but I think we could probably do it. It\u2019s just, yeah, I\u2019ve been working so long, I don\u2019t know what it looks like to even think about not working in five years, but-<\/p>\n
Well, that\u2019s what our job is to do that. Five years, I think, is a really reasonable amount of time in a situation like yours or someone who\u2019s willing to make big changes to get a step function change in your situation. Is it enough to go from zero to multimillionaire retiree? No, but it\u2019s definitely enough to go from zero to maybe a few hundred thousand in net worth for somebody or from a few hundred thousand to well over a million, in your case, with substantial actual passive cashflow if you\u2019re intentional about it and that\u2019s your plan.<\/p>\n
Intentional and plan. I like those two words, Scott. Okay. Jill, well, this was a lot of fun. I really appreciate your time today. I\u2019m super excited for pictures of your house. Please send them to me, your live and flip, and hit me up with any questions you have about it because it can be super fun. Every once in a while, you will hit a brick wall and be like, \u201cOh, what am I getting myself into?\u201d So if you need words of encouragement, reach out because I have them. It\u2019s not always pretty, but it\u2019s a really fun cashing those big checks when you sell it.<\/p>\n
Have you seen shag carpets that have rakes in the rooms that you have to rake the carpet?<\/p>\n
I usually rip those out the day I close.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s in good shape, but it was funny. I was like, \u201cWhy is there a rake?\u201d and the realtor is like, \u201cYeah. You don\u2019t vacuum shag. You rake it.\u201d So it\u2019s going to be an experience.<\/p>\n
Oh, yeah. When you pull it out, have a mask on like one of those big breather masks because all the garbage that they didn\u2019t rake, didn\u2019t vacuum up will be there.<\/p>\n
Good to know.<\/p>\n
Gross.<\/p>\n
See, learning already.<\/p>\n
Smells like money.<\/p>\n
Yuck. Okay. Jill, we will talk to you soon.<\/p>\n
All right. Thank you.<\/p>\n
Thank you. All right. Scott, that was Jill. That was a lot of fun. I really, really enjoyed your take on where she\u2019s going and I just always get something out of these episodes. I had a lot of fun with her today.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I think it was a good discussion. I think that she\u2019s made a lot of really smart decisions. It sounds like they\u2019ve really come into a really good income situation. I\u2019m excited to see how her husband\u2019s business takes off. I\u2019m excited to see what they decide with the primary residence that they currently have, what they\u2019re going to do with that. I\u2019m excited to see how they\u2019re new live and flip goes. So I mean, they\u2019re doing all the right things and I think they\u2019re going to build wealth a lot faster than they think over the next three to five years.<\/p>\n
I agree. I think they have a lot of things going in their favor. Number one is that they don\u2019t have debt and they have a great income. They spend less than they earn. She has an impressive income, and then she has things being taken out of her check before she even sees it. I love that tip. That tip right at the very beginning of the show, love that. Talk to your HR department and see what you can get taken out of your paycheck and see if there\u2019s a discount for having that done.<\/p>\n
Yeah. By the way, let\u2019s call something out here. She just finished paying off a lot of debt, has put everything into retirement accounts at this point, and has the home equity. This is really an inflection point for Jill, where she has created a really good situation, and has a lot of the ability to invest in a go forward basis. I think that she\u2019s like, \u201cWhat are you talking about? Five years from now I\u2019m going to have a really good outcome here or have a lot of optionality.\u201d Well, I think that\u2019s right. I think you can\u2019t count on it, but you can say looking back at stock market returns over the last 150 years, the compound annual growth rate is close to 10%. It\u2019s a little less than 10%, right?<\/p>\n
So you say, \u201cOkay. I got 800 grand, right? I\u2019m going to save up 100 grand a year for investible liquidity, and I\u2019m going to make a 10% return. So that\u2019s 180 grand in wealth building going on every year with the 100 that I\u2019m building compounding, right? Then that\u2019s going to go up and then I\u2019m going to increase my wealth by another 18 grand on top of that 180, so just under 200 grand the next year, and then 220, and then 240, and so on and so forth.\u201d<\/p>\n
That compounding, and again, that\u2019s going to happen in an average long-term environment. It may not happen next year. The next five years might be terrible, but why would you build your model on something that is drastically different from the long-term averages and plan for what you think is a reasonable set of events to happen downstream? If you\u2019re used to having a huge debt burden, the opposite effect is taking place. Interest is accruing against you and you\u2019re pushing the ball up the hill or the rock up mountain. Then when you get on the other side and you start investing, it\u2019s starting to roll down the mountain from that.<\/p>\n
I think that\u2019s what a lot of people can maybe take away from this is, yeah, it sounds crazy, but once you\u2019re out of debt and beginning the investment process and thinking through it really intelligently, I think you have a really good shot at compounding those gains and snowballing over a fairly, and you should bake that into your plan because what\u2019s at stake here is prime years of your life doing what you want to do. So that\u2019s the consequence of getting this right, right? There\u2019s a consequence to being too aggressive and running out of money and creating a problem. There\u2019s also a consequence to not being realistic and being way too conservative and not doing the things you want to do earlier in life when you want to do them.<\/p>\n
I could not have said it better, Scott. Absolutely, 100% agree. What is the opportunity cost of not being able to do the things that you want to do because you\u2019re busy paying off debt? It just goes back to that spend less than you earn, invest wisely, earn more. There\u2019s a lot of things that you can do to game the system just by being intelligent and being conscious with your spending. Okay. Scott, should we get out of here?<\/p>\n
Let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n
From episode 310 of the BiggerPockets Money podcast, he is Scott Trench, and I am Mindy Jensen saying, \u201cGive me a hug, lady bug.\u201d<\/p>\n