\n<\/p>\n
Who\u2019s buying real estate?<\/strong> Maybe you are, maybe your friend is, but what about NFL players<\/strong>? Most casual fans would assume that getting paid millions of dollars a year <\/strong>would ensure a long-lasting retirement, but this isn\u2019t always true. For many professional athletes, you\u2019re constantly living one injury away from having no income<\/strong>. If, like many newly-signed pros, you splurge your first few years of checks, you could enter into retirement flat broke<\/strong> without any of the millions you earned.<\/p>\n This is the exact opposite of what Cliff Avril and <\/strong>Devon Kennard<\/strong><\/a> did. They knew that their career earnings started ticking away the second they stepped onto the field, so they made moves to protect their wealth<\/strong> in other ways. Although numerous financial advisors told them to play it safe with index funds, REITs (real estate investment trusts), or other more \u201cpassive\u201d investments, they decided to multiply their active income by investing heavily in real estate<\/strong>.<\/p>\n And, even during an economic downturn, these two financial powerhouses are still investing, trying to maximize their dollar as much as possible. In this episode, we chat with Cliff and Devon about syndications <\/strong>they\u2019ve invested in, how they\u2019re staying up-to-date in today\u2019s wild <\/strong>housing market<\/strong><\/a>, where they\u2019re investing, and why they picked real estate<\/strong> over all the other assets. You don\u2019t need to be a pro football player to take these lessons to heart, so stick around because this episode is bound to make you wealthier<\/strong>!<\/p>\n Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: Cliff: Devon: Dave: Cliff: Dave: Devon: James: Devon: James: Devon: Cliff: Devon: Cliff: Devon: Dave: Cliff: Dave: Devon: James: Cliff: Devon: Cliff: Dave: Cliff: Dave: Cliff: Devon: James: Cliff: Devon: Dave: James: Dave: Devon: Cliff: James: Cliff: Dave: Devon: Cliff: Dave: James: Devon: James: Cliff: James: Cliff: James: Cliff: Devon: Dave: Cliff: James: Cliff: James: Devon: Cliff: Devon: Dave: Devon: Cliff: Devon: Dave: Devon: Dave: Cliff: Dave: Cliff: Dave: Cliff: Dave: Devon: James: Cliff: Dave: Devon: Dave: Devon: Dave: Cliff: Dave: James: Devon: Cliff: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: James: Dave: \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Interested in learning more about today\u2019s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Check out our <\/i>sponsor page<\/a><\/i>!<\/i><\/p>\n Note By BiggerPockets:<\/b> These are opinions written by the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of BiggerPockets.<\/p>\n
Hey everyone. Welcome to On The Market. I\u2019m your host, Dave Meyer, joined by Seahawks super fan James Dainard. What\u2019s going on James?<\/p>\n
I\u2019m just, I woke up so early and I was excited for the day. This is a good day.<\/p>\n
You\u2019re just a kid in the candy store today. Could you tell everyone why you\u2019re so excited?<\/p>\n
Well, we have two awesome people coming on. We got Devon Kennard, and then we have Cliff Avril, which I\u2019m a huge fan of. I actually think Cliff\u2019s one of the most underrated pass rushers that played during that era. He was dominating before he went out of the league, and I\u2019m just a massive Seahawk fan. The only thing we got to get on, we have to get Kam Chancellor on. That\u2019s, I did reach out, so you never know.<\/p>\n
Maybe now, at once we\u2019ve done this, we can send him a link to the episode and be like, \u201cThis could be you.\u201d I don\u2019t know if that would inspire him, but maybe we can show him that other people and his former teammates are doing it too.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Big hits, that Kam is known for big hits, but yeah, I\u2019m stoked. This is it. It was a fun, great show and I\u2019m just, anytime we bring on athletes, I sign up, put me in. Put me in coach.<\/p>\n
Yeah. It\u2019s awesome. I mean, the conversation is so good. They really have some applicable lessons and they\u2019re obviously athletes that come from the world of professional sports, but everything they say really applies to general investing and people, a lot about being a member of a team that I really thought was really interesting about how knowing your role on the team and building a team around, what you\u2019re good at and augmenting and supplementing your skills.
So I think it\u2019s super interesting. They\u2019re really great investors and it seems like they\u2019re doing some incredible stuff right now. So we talk about all sorts of stuff, everything, how to get started, how to vet syndicators, what they\u2019re doing in today\u2019s current market. So I think you\u2019re going to really enjoy the show. Was there anything in particular you think people should listen out for?<\/p>\n
No, I agree. Just building that team and then sticking to what you know, and I did also like how they\u2019re going over their performance and how they know that they\u2019re responsible to evaluate that asset and to punch as many holes in as possible in it. So just saying it doesn\u2019t matter who you are, we\u2019re all following the same rules and the same basics.<\/p>\n
Absolutely. All right, well let\u2019s get into it. But first we\u2019re going to take a quick break.
Cliff Avril and Devon Kennard, welcome to On The Market. Thank you both so much for being here.<\/p>\n
Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us, and I\u2019m looking forward to this conversation.<\/p>\n
Absolutely. It\u2019s a pleasure man. Thank you for having us.<\/p>\n
All right, well for those of our listeners who don\u2019t know you, could each just introduce yourself and give us a little background with both with football and with real estate. Cliff, let\u2019s start with you.<\/p>\n
Oh wow. 10 year NFL vet, pro bowler, Super Bowl champ, beat some of the y\u2019all Broncos and I\u2019ve been retired for five years now and I\u2019m living the dream through real estate and some of the things that I\u2019ve learned through the NFL and in applying it to the real estate game.<\/p>\n
Awesome. Well thanks for being here. What about you, Devon?<\/p>\n
My name is Devon Kennard. This is my 9th year in the NFL going into 10 next year. I\u2019ve been investing in real estate since my first year in the NFL. I own 22 properties and I\u2019m also a limited partner in a number of syndications. So I love real estate, I love playing football and I\u2019ve had my fair share of dubs in the 12 land too. So I see James with Kam Chancellor jersey. I remember those days. I got some dubs that way.<\/p>\n
Well, you going to get dubs on us there, did you?<\/p>\n
No. When I was in New York they got us there, but-<\/p>\n
Oh, I was there for that game.<\/p>\n
Yeah. It was one of my first years in the league. Actually, a funny story, I remember Marshawn Lynch ran over our bit of linebackers and I was right outside with my fam running smooth over.<\/p>\n
Welcome to the NFL.<\/p>\n
[inaudible 00:04:16] over my first, it was my rookie season and I\u2019m like, \u201cOh my goodness. Yeah, I\u2019m here now.\u201d<\/p>\n
Was that Super Bowl year? Was that Super Bowl year? I think that was Super Bowl year. Huh?<\/p>\n
I think it was, bro. I\u2019m turning the playback with my right shoulder in the middle linebacker having clean in the hole, Marshawn runs them smooth over. I just remember Quinn did, that was one of my first big memories. I was like, \u201cYeah, you got to lower your pants on Marshawn.<\/p>\n
All right. So I\u2019d love to just start with learning about how you both got started in real estate. It sounds like you both have built impressive portfolios. Cliff, I\u2019m curious, were you investing while you were still in the NFL or has this sort of been since you retired?<\/p>\n
No. Yeah, so I was an investor in real estate throughout my career while I was in the league through different syndications and funds and different things like that. And that was my first taste of getting into the real estate game from an investor standpoint.
I had purchased some homes, actually one of my best investments was my very first home that I purchased from my mom. That\u2019s pretty much doubled in price that we still own. But yeah, I was an investor while I played and then I decided once I retired, to dive deeper into it and start building my own portfolio, because once you read in between the lines of those syndications and docs, you start seeing all the fees that are associated with it and kind of change your mind a little bit and say, \u201cHey, let me see what I can do myself and see how I can keep some of those returns for myself.\u201d<\/p>\n
And what about you, Devon? You\u2019re still in the NFL. What inspired you to get started when you obviously have a full-time job?<\/p>\n
Yeah. I think for me, it started actually when I was in college, coming into college I was a top five-star recruit, top defensive end, outside linebacker in the country, and I had a lot of injuries while I was in college and it made reality set in. So where I was like, \u201cWhat am I going to do if football didn\u2019t work out for me?\u201d So I started to have mentors and connect with different people and real estate stood out for me.
So after my rookie season in the NFL, I started to get into syndications. I got into my first syndication, but I always wanted to balance the two. I thought syndications were a good way to build passive income, but I also wanted to build my own personal portfolio.
So I started going to different meet ups in the off-season after my first year and I bought a single family property in Indianapolis from a turnkey provider. And that was kind of the first property that got me rolling and I\u2019ve just kind of kept stacking from there.<\/p>\n
How did you, because real estates, I mean it is definitely what I invest only in, I\u2019m kind of a one-dimensional investor. But as where a lot of athletes go to the NFL, they get these bigger contracts or contracts and then they sit down with these financial planners and there\u2019s so many different investment platforms out there.
I mean, we\u2019ve seen just investing across with a financial planner or crypto\u2019s been really big the last two years. We\u2019ve seen a lot of in athletes kind of endorse that.
How did you guys select? Why real estate with all the different platforms out there? What made you zone in on real estate? I know for me, it was about why I wanted to own, what I was investing in and that\u2019s what got me into my first deal at 19. But why did you guys zone in on it?<\/p>\n
For me, being out here in Seattle, I\u2019ve been fortunate and blessed to meet quite a few individuals that are very successful. Whether you\u2019re talking about the CEO of obviously, CEO of Zillow and all these different individuals and you meet them all. And one thing was common, they all own real estate. They might have not been in the business of real estate, but they all owned a lot of real estate.
And I would always ask questions and obviously the tax benefits, the cash flow, all these different things. I\u2019m like, \u201cMan, if the wealthy people are doing that\u2026\u201d Because out here I joke around all the time and say, \u201cIt\u2019s athletes, if you\u2019re in some of these smaller markets, you might be the top earner in those cities, but here in Seattle you might not come top 3000, 4000.\u201d You know what I mean?
So being around all those folks that are doing better than you, it exposed me to the real estate game and just understanding that how valuable it can be. As you know, taxes are always going to be probably some of our biggest expense. So if you can mitigate them through different ways of investing and making money, why not? So that was my approach and how I got into it.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I would say I definitely agree with that for myself as well. But when I first got into the league, I had a financial advisor and it was mostly a traditional guide who was trying to get me into stocks and all that and do what everybody else was doing. And I was looking at it and I came into the NFL with a vision of like, \u201cI wanted to create enough income to where when I\u2019m done playing, I can sustain my life off of the income that I have generated.\u201d
And all the investments I was recommended and getting me into the stock market seemed was speculative. It was going up, it was going down. I wasn\u2019t pocketing anything. And I was like, \u201cThis isn\u2019t helping solve the problem.\u201d That I feel like we have as professional athletes, you played for a certain amount of time, you get out of the NFL, what income do you have coming in? And the stock market didn\u2019t seem to solve that problem for me.
So that\u2019s where I started to look outside of my financial advisor, listen to other mentors, listen to BiggerPockets and read books and I\u2019m like, \u201cReal estate was kind of the solution.\u201d And I kind of had to teach myself because I didn\u2019t know a lot of people in my position who was really building out primarily real estate portfolios to build their portfolio and create their wealth. So it was kind of trial and error to be honest.<\/p>\n
Trial and error works in this business as long as you take steps. That\u2019s huge though, I would agree. Trial and error, it just taking the steps, going back to what Devon was just saying, as far as for all of us athletes when we first get into the NFL, NBA, everyone\u2019s pushing the financial advisors, and I have one and I\u2019ve been with him for 15 years now.
And what I appreciate about my financial advisor, which I\u2019ve come to realize is very different from a lot of other ones, are one, he teaches you what you\u2019re investing in. Two, he\u2019s not like\u2026 Most financial advisors don\u2019t want you investing outside of them because obviously they don\u2019t get paid with the capital that you deploy in other assets, but my guy is very much behind that.
He\u2019s very much behind helping me understand from a tax perspective being a CPA as well, helping me understand the value of investing in real estate, how to capitalize and making sure that you\u2019re being efficient in how your business is running. So for me, my experience has been a little bit different from a financial advisor standpoint, but I do hear a lot of stories of financial advisors kind of pushing you away from real estate and diversifying your portfolio.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s so funny you say that. I have been looking for a financial advisor myself and spent honestly months just looking for anyone who could have this kind of conversation with me about real estate. Just like a casual, you know what I\u2019m talking about, the difference between a syndication and a house flip. And I found five of them in the entire country, they just don\u2019t exist.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s hard man.<\/p>\n
And it\u2019s so weird, right? Because honestly stocks and bonds, it doesn\u2019t vary that much and there\u2019s this whole industry that help you customize your portfolio, and what are you really customizing? You\u2019re buying index funds, whereas real estate is actually hard and you need to customize it a lot, but there\u2019s not a lot of people out there to teach you how to do it. But I guess that keeps James and I on a job, so that\u2019s pretty good.<\/p>\n
But it goes back to what I was saying though, right? They\u2019re not compensated for things outside of what they present to you. So most won\u2019t do that. That\u2019s not a great business plan for them if you think about it. You know what I mean? Most of them won\u2019t even try to learn that aspect of it because it\u2019s kind of taking money out of their pockets.<\/p>\n
I think that\u2019s very key because as I had gone through different financial advisors earlier in my career trying to find a good fit. That became a rule of thumb for me, is if I bring some of the deals that I\u2019m doing and I\u2019ve evaluated them and I know they\u2019re pretty sound deals and all of this and I\u2019ve presented to them and they\u2019re telling me I shouldn\u2019t do that or I should only do what they have, that is automatic red flag because you\u2019re not giving me unbiased advice anymore.
You\u2019re slowing me towards everything that you have, and if it\u2019s not from you and your group and your fund, whatever, then you\u2019re kind of telling me it\u2019s no good. And that\u2019s just not the case many, many other times. So finding somebody who\u2019s going to be open and transparent, and I think that\u2019s the long game.
So my financial advisor now, his mind says more so like, \u201cI\u2019ll help you evaluate things you\u2019re doing outside of me because if it\u2019s successful, it\u2019s going to increase your revenue, increase your net worth, which is then going to have more money to that I can potentially invest for you down the line.\u201d
So having someone who has that long horizon in mind and isn\u2019t just trying to get the immediate win with just do what I tell you type of deal, I think that\u2019s really important.<\/p>\n
Yeah. The overall big picture of the client, right? Because we work in the client side of the business for real estate. It\u2019s, well I mean what people should be doing is diversifying and investing in all different asset classes. That\u2019s the safest way to do it. I don\u2019t do that because I seem to lose money every time I put it in anything but real estate. But I think that\u2019s called the sell away, right? In a lot of these big firms, when you sign up as a broker, you\u2019re not allowed, you\u2019ve signed a sell away agreement, you\u2019re not allowed to offer other investments from what I understand, maybe I\u2019m wrong there.
And so as you guys started getting into real estate and you\u2019re talking to financial planners and then you chose real estate, it sounded like both of you invested in a syndication deal first or so you\u2019re investing in someone else\u2019s processes, which is kind of a scary thing for a lot of investors when they\u2019re making that first step. I know even for me, I did some passive investing the last couple years, where I invested in other operators, which I\u2019ve never done before and it was kind of nervous.
So as with you guys getting new into real estate and you were just learning, how did you make that first selection of which operator you were going to put the money into? How did you vet that person? Because there is a lot of, you hear stories, I think there was one out a couple months ago where it was an athlete suing an operator, an investment advisor because they gave him bad advice and there\u2019s a lot of bad advice and there can be bad deals out there and you got to be kind of cautious. How did you guys take those steps and vet through that?<\/p>\n
For me, I\u2019ve kind of just over time created criterias of why or who I\u2019m going to invest with, because at the end of the day you\u2019re investing in the jockey. I do some private equity investing as well and different things like that. You\u2019re investing in the jockey, you\u2019re investing in the operator, but in knowing that, now you got to do your due diligence of what their resume is. And I\u2019m going to always be able to go back to football as analogy and it\u2019s no different.
You get this first round draft pick that you just, you\u2019re going to look at his film from previous years to see why you\u2019re going to draft this guy. So it\u2019s no different with individuals that I work with. I need to see your resume just like I assume and I hope that you\u2019re going to do the same with me as far as for what I know in the real estate game if you\u2019re going to invest with me.
And so for me as I was going it was referrals, it was references from different individuals. Okay. Do you work with solely athletes or do you work with other individuals? That plays a big role for me too. If you only work with athletes, I don\u2019t want to work with you. You know what I mean? Because there must be a niche there and there must be some kind of ignorance or something. I don\u2019t know what it might be. So I need to know all the different individuals that you\u2019re working with as well.
So for me, it\u2019s just I have a criteria of different things that I look for. Also, again, my financial advisor are very involved with that as well. They\u2019ll go to meetings with me and poke holes through some of the pitch decks and different things that people might have for us and we kind of come collectively as a team and figure out if this makes sense to invest or not.<\/p>\n
Very similar for me as well. I always say all stars hanging around all stars and it\u2019s relevant in football and I think it\u2019s relevant in business. So when I meet someone and I have a mentor or someone that I have some type of business relationship, \u201cWho are you dealing or doing deals with?\u201d They usually have the best recommendations.
The guys who they\u2019ve made the most money with, the guys, they\u2019ve had the track record. So I typically start there and then I start to evaluate and ask questions, \u201cWhat are you looking for in this deal? Why is this a good deal?\u201d And then I start to get various deals with myself and I bring it to one of my mentors, my financial advisor, and I usually have two or three people, especially early on when I didn\u2019t know what I was doing and I send them the decks and I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat do you see? Is this a deal that\u2019s similar to the deals that you\u2019re doing? What\u2019s different?\u201d
So when it comes to syndications, I started to get an understanding of what\u2026 People always talking about high fees, what\u2019s a high fee? What\u2019s a fair fee? What\u2019s over speculative? Are they factoring in repairing maintenance? Are they hiking up REITs way higher than is realistic?
I start to gauge these things based on conversations you have and what other people are looking at. And then you build that and it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, now you kind of have an idea of what to look for and you have people who can come to help you vet it.\u201d And that doing that meticulously over and over again, you start to get in a good rhythm and can really see there\u2019s trends on good deals and there\u2019s trends on bad deals and you can decide pretty quickly the good from the bad.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s super good advice. I think that a lot of people when they start investing in syndications, I was like this, \u201cErr.\u201d A little, I was overwhelmed and I sort of just took people at their word at first because I was like, \u201cMan, they know so much more than me.\u201d And I was a little bit afraid to ask questions or to try and poke holes in their business plan, but you should do that.
And James, you\u2019re an operator. I assume as an operator you want investors who understand what they\u2019re getting into and want to ask those types of questions and make sure that they\u2019re a hundred percent on board with your business plan and know what they\u2019re getting themselves into.<\/p>\n
Oh yeah. That\u2019s a big red flag for me. If someone just comes and says, \u201cHey, I want to give you money.\u201d Because they have heard stories about us or seen us grow. We slow everyone down, because not only do you have to punch holes, I mean every investment has holes in it, no matter what it is. It could be the greatest deal in the world, but there\u2019s holes there and you have to look for those, and then not only that, when I\u2019m talking to operators or when we\u2019re as operators, we know what those holes are already and we try to address those immediately.
Because as operators it\u2019s really important to explain the risk, because you know what? How it\u2019s put to me is you want people when\u2026 Everyone\u2019s happy when things are going great, right? When 2020 to 2022 is going on, everybody\u2019s happy. The problem is with investing their cycles, they lay go up and down and when you have to get in a foxhole because you\u2019re in a bad cycle, you want those like-minded people in that foxhole with you, because the worst thing you can do is jump out of that foxhole and then the whole thing collapses, and the whole ship goes down. And so you want to make sure that you have like-minded people in these investments.
So as operators, we\u2019re also interviewing our investors. If all of a sudden they freak out, then that\u2019s not good for the whole ship and we can\u2019t have that thing sink. So you have to be like-minded because also other operators offer different things. Some are short-term high yield investment guys and that\u2019s great for what maybe an investor\u2019s trying to do because they don\u2019t want to be in a deal for five to 10 years.
There\u2019s guys that are only in deals for five and 10 years. The syndication deal I invested in, they said they plan on never selling it. It\u2019s like, \u201cHey, just be under the pretense. We\u2019re never selling this one.\u201d And I was okay with that because we\u2019re still going to be able to get our money back out after we refi. So just making sure everyone\u2019s on a like-mind is really important.<\/p>\n
So one question I get a lot about syndications and then we\u2019ll move on to some other stuff, but it\u2019s how to get deal flow? Especially when you first started, how do you find syndications? So I know you both are probably higher profile than the average On The Market listener, but I\u2019m just curious, how did you start getting deal flow in syndicators and finding people that you ultimately did trust and decide to invest with?<\/p>\n
Well, I\u2019ll start. I mean I\u2019ll say on that you would think, guys are getting tons of syndication opportunities, but there\u2019s not too many guys I know who invest in a ton of real estate syndications to be honest. They get a lot of exposure to REITs and different things like that from their financial advisors, but pride meets syndication, they\u2019re not a ton of guys in the locker room that I\u2019ve been who are in the kind of deals that I am in. So that\u2019s one to start.
So for me, when I first started getting into them, I was looking around like am I doing something wrong because I\u2019m asking people and talking to guys in the locker room and not a lot of people are in these kind of deals. So that that\u2019s my experience. And how I started to finally deal was again, goes to all stars, no, all stars.
Who\u2019s investing in these kind of deals? And who are the syndicators that you\u2019re working with? What kind of deals? And then you start to create trees of different people you\u2019re networking with, that are investing in syndications. What deals are they getting into? Who are the main people running these deals? And you build relationships with these different syndicators and it grows from there.
So I feel like there\u2019s a really organic way that you should go about it and asking people who are doing it, what deals are you doing, what syndicators are you working with, how successful have they been for you? And then going from there.<\/p>\n
I would agree as far as for the locker room most times and not guys aren\u2019t thinking about investing or guys aren\u2019t thinking about real estate syndications and different things like that. One, guys are young, they\u2019re not processing it like that. But I was fortunate enough to, when I got to Seattle in particular, I was fortunate enough to be around guys like Marshawn, Michael Bennett, Richard Sherman, all these different guys that were like-minded when it came to investing in what we\u2019re going to do with our money.
Marshawn say, \u201cMan, you got to count your chickens.\u201d That was a thing in the NFL. In our locker room as the veteran player, for me, when I used to walk into the locker room, we had 6:00 AM workouts and stuff. Myself and Michael Bennett, we controlled the speakers in the locker room and the first thing we\u2019re doing, we\u2019re playing Rich Dad, Poor Dad. We\u2019re playing different books and audio books or whatever, making sure that guys understand, like \u201cThis is extremely important too because this ride can end immediately.\u201d
So as far as for being exposed to different syndications, it\u2019s all about just having the conversations with one another. \u201cOh man, Marshawn, you\u2019re in real estate man. Who\u2019s, how are you doing it? What are you doing? Who\u2019s bringing you these deals?\u201d \u201cOh man, I\u2019ll put you in contact with such and such.\u201d \u201cOh man, Richard, what you got going on?\u201d \u201cCliff, man, I know you\u2019re into real estate. What you got going on?\u201d And then, \u201cOkay, you meet this individual.\u201d Next thing you know, you\u2019re meeting other people that are doing it and then you start hearing more and more deals start coming your way.
Now, it\u2019s on you to vet through those deals to make sure that you\u2019re not getting guy or it\u2019s the right situation for you. So it just boils down to having a conversation. But networking, money and investing is like religion and everything else at the dinner table. No one really wants to talk about it in the locker room, you know what I mean? And for us, it was completely different.
We wanted to talk about it because we wanted all of us to be a part of being able to obviously capitalize off the money we\u2019ve been able to earn on the field. And honestly, I think that\u2019s why we were so good, is because we were truly a brotherhood. We were truly friends that wanted to talk about all the different things that we had going on and no envy or anything like that came about. And so that allowed us to grow in whatever avenue we decided we want to go in.<\/p>\n
Yeah. And I think that\u2019s a good, do you think you guys were so passionate about that? Because that\u2019s what it\u2019s about, right? That networking and vetting people through referrals and those, I mean that the best deals I\u2019ve ever done or best people I\u2019ve ever met is usually through a personal referral.
Do you think that your locker room was so into investing? Because of how many players when they leave the NFL or leave any kind of professional sport, there was some stat that came out or it was that Sports Illustrated said 78% of NFL players go broke after the first two years of their retirement. And that\u2019s it, that\u2019s a scary stat. That\u2019s not a high test rate.<\/p>\n
No doubt. But now, I also want to talk about that stat too, just in general, right? Because you got to think about it, the average is less than three years in the NFL, right? So in that three-year span, have you accumulated enough money to actually be good for the rest of your life? 99% of the time, no you haven\u2019t.
Now, have you made some decent money? Yes. But you\u2019re also 22, 23, 24 years old, haven\u2019t bought a house. You know what I mean? You\u2019re still training and different things like that. So I can understand how some guys may be broke, but also guys haven\u2019t really earned that much money to be financially set for the rest of their lives. Usually that\u2019s your second contract, usually that\u2019s when you\u2019re 27, 28 years old.
But knowing that stat, for me in particular, I started thinking about that. I started thinking about, \u201cOkay, well if the average is less than this, all right, I need to start putting money away, I need to start putting money away in the 401(k) plan that they have in the NFL.\u201d Which is pretty solid. I know some people don\u2019t necessarily believe in it, but again, I\u2019m all about diversifying and putting money in different places.
But the conversations of just talking about what we\u2019re investing in, you\u2019re starting to see athletes are thinking more about investing in where to put their money, because you see Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, all these guys are making big boy moves. And if you\u2019re not where they\u2019re at financially, but you\u2019re thinking that way, you\u2019re getting that right mindset and it\u2019s all about just not wanting to be part of the statistics as well. So you start to have these conversations with one another and guys tend to be on the same page.<\/p>\n
Cliff, that\u2019s an awesome statistical analysis. I love that being a data nerd. But it\u2019s also true if you compare that to how many 24-year-olds just go broke, just in general probably, I think most of us were there at some point being broke. But I love what you\u2019re saying about just normalizing the conversation about money and investing.
I feel like that\u2019s just so important and people don\u2019t want to talk about it. It doesn\u2019t make any sense. It\u2019s exciting. And personally I think it\u2019s kind of fun. I guess itself and I have a podcast about it, but I mean I think it\u2019s just so important if you\u2019re of that mindset to try and teach other people that it\u2019s okay to talk about it and it\u2019s fun to talk about and it\u2019s actually going to really benefit you.<\/p>\n
One thing I\u2019m passionate about within that is I\u2019ve been in a lot of locker rooms and guys have the assumption that it has to be the star player. And it\u2019s that guy who\u2019s doing, who\u2019s making all the moves, who\u2019s doing all of that, and then all the other guys, it\u2019s this kind of unsaid thing where you got to football, better be your life, you got to be locked in if you want to keep making it, if you want to do this, and being a person who, I feel like I\u2019ve been kind of in the middle, I\u2019m never been a pro bowler. I\u2019m not going to be a Hall of Famer one day, I haven\u2019t won a Super Bowl, but I\u2019ve been blessed enough to have a very long and successful career.
So I can relate to some of these guys who\u2019ve in the years, 3, 4, 5, 6 years, but maybe didn\u2019t sign a mega deal. No, it\u2019s even, it\u2019s just as important if not more for you to start to build out in investments to look at things differently. But a lot of those guys, which is majority of the locker room, are so locked in on just trying to survive as long as they can in the NFL, that they don\u2019t revert any of their attention to what they need to be doing outside of football.
So in the locker rooms I\u2019m in, I have a lot of conversations with those guys because, I was just with Arizona and it\u2019s like, it is not just Kyler Murray and J.J Watt and AJ Green and those guys who need to be making moves in our locker room. It\u2019s the guy who\u2019s in year three who is hoping to get another deal.
Like, \u201cWhat are you doing with the money you\u2019ve accumulated? And even if you don\u2019t have enough to sustain you the rest of your life, how can you use the money you\u2019ve made to propel you into the next thing?\u201d And helping guys think that way I think is really important and the difference in the locker room.<\/p>\n
But the goal also, to add onto that as well, I think it\u2019s a confidence thing. And I\u2019m not just even talking about athletes, we\u2019re talking about money in general. It\u2019s not something that\u2019s taught in school. Financial literacy is not something that\u2019s taught across America. So people aren\u2019t confident talking about something they don\u2019t really know much about.
Now, when you bring the athlete\u2019s perspective into it as well, it\u2019s the same thing. \u201cNow, I got a couple of dollars, I still don\u2019t know what to do with it.\u201d \u201cTV tells me I should go buy this Rolls-Royce.\u201d And that\u2019s probably the dumbest thing to go do. So it\u2019s the confidence thing in understanding financial literacy.
So as we know better, as athlete people, as we understand money and we got to give the game back to the youth so they can do a little bit better as they come through the ranks as well. But I think it\u2019s more of a confidence thing and just know you\u2019re not confident because you don\u2019t know understand it or you don\u2019t know it.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s such a good point. I mean, you wouldn\u2019t want to go talk to someone about something you don\u2019t feel comfortable with. It always feels like you kind of want to go home and learn a little bit by yourself so that you\u2019re at least literate enough in financial terms to be able to have those conversations, but which is great. Why I guess, why you\u2019re putting Robert Kiyosaki and Rich Dad, Poor Dad on the workout playlist.
I mean, I thought I learned, listened to some pretty nerdy things while I work out, but that\u2019s another level right there. But it\u2019s helpful, I think to just give people that background knowledge so that you can start having those conversations.<\/p>\n
And Devon\u2019s going to have to start bumping the OTM. On The Market. Devon, I want everybody here [inaudible 00:31:18].<\/p>\n
Everyone here On The Market.<\/p>\n
Every what podcast. So you guys have both been actually fairly active investors, passively actively for the last five to eight years and it\u2019s been a little bit of a different market. We\u2019ve seen the ramp up, 2012 it\u2019s kind of when the market started really turning a corner again, at least in the Seattle market it did, I\u2019d say 11, 12. And then we saw the craziest market I\u2019ve ever seen in 2020, 2022 where there were some really massive gains going on.
And how was you guys, in going through\u2026 Because this is going to be your guys\u2019 kind of first SAR cycle. I know when I was really young, I was in real estate and how I got started was in door knocking and wholesaling. And then 2008 happened and I learned a lot of major lessons at that point.
And we\u2019re not going into the same thing as that, but we\u2019re going through a different dip in the cycle and I know, what have you guys been doing to change with the market or as passive investors, what are you guys looking for or as projects that you\u2019re getting involved in, have you guys gotten more cautious, go on the deals you\u2019re looking at, or are you guys in the middle of deals right now that you\u2019re having some issues in? Because that\u2019s always that learning curve.
The markets are good and then they\u2019re not good and then they can level back out and it\u2019s just those constant waves that you got to ride as an investor. What kind of lessons have you guys learned, or what has been happening with your projects in the last nine months?<\/p>\n
For me, I think it\u2019s all about being creative. Getting creative. I just closed on apartment building about two months ago and we did seller financing. The terms made sense, the interest rates and everything else made sense so we pulled the trigger on it. So I think it\u2019s just all about being creative and how you\u2019re financing because money\u2019s getting more expensive.
The rents have been at was crazy for the longest. Now they\u2019re kind of starting to soften up a little bit. So you just adjust and your performance. For me in particular, I\u2019m very, very conservative in my approach with performance and different things like that. So I never want to be in a situation where I\u2019m upside down because I was thinking REITs were going to be $2,400 and right now they\u2019re freaking 1500 bucks. Let\u2019s just put it at 16 or 1700 bucks or whatever the case may be. So I\u2019m extremely conservative when it comes down to that type of stuff, but I\u2019m still looking for deals.
The one quote that sticks with me is Warren Buffett\u2019s quote, \u201cBe fearful when everybody\u2019s greedy and be greedy when everybody\u2019s fearful.\u201d I feel like we\u2019re about to be in that process right now. We\u2019re about to be in a space where everybody\u2019s kind of being fearful. So I think opportunities will present themselves and now it\u2019s all about just getting creative on how to acquire these assets. And I\u2019ve been fortunate enough to find different ways of doing so.<\/p>\n
The apartments have gotten better in Seattle, the deals are there, that I mean, because it was hard to lock down anything decent sized the last 24 months. Now it\u2019s, they\u2019re actually, there\u2019s really good opportunities out there right now.<\/p>\n
No. Seattle\u2019s a different beast, man. I don\u2019t buy any of my multi-family stuff in Seattle just because it\u2019s, one, too expensive, a lot of money chasing a lot of the same deals and so I kind of stay away from that.
But in Seattle in particular, we build spec homes and I\u2019m on the east side in Bellevue, so you being from this area, you understand it\u2019s a different ballgame as far as for what homes are going for and it has softened up a little bit. But we built some spec homes here and then I take those proceeds and I go buy stuff in the Midwest. I go buy stuff in the southeast region for cash flow and some appreciation as well.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Good news is this, actually Bellevue\u2019s picking up. The last two weeks right out the gate, the transactions are moving again. It was in stall mode for three to four months and I think it might have just been a lot of seasonal change too. It\u2019s the momentums picking back up. We sold seven, eight homes in the first two weeks of the year.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I just closed on a property. We pre-sold it. And it\u2019s funny because we pre-sold it early part of, or the end of 2021 and everyone\u2019s like, \u201cWhat are you doing? You\u2019re crazy. Why would you pre-sell that? You\u2019re leaving so much money on the table.\u201d And just like my football days, I\u2019m all about guaranteed money. I don\u2019t care how big your contract is, how much money\u2019s guaranteed because if I blow my knee out, I know that\u2019s all I\u2019m leaving with.
So it\u2019s the same exact thing. The same exact approach with some of our spec homes is, if somebody brings us something that makes sense, we sold it, we pre-sold it and then at the end of the day, we just closed on it about a week and a half ago and people were like, \u201cOh my gosh, you\u2019re a genius for pre-selling stuff.\u201d You know what I mean? I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, because I\u2019m going with that for sure thing.\u201d You know what I mean? I\u2019m not chasing the extra couple hundred thousand just to lose a few hundred on the back, dude.<\/p>\n
I would say on my end a big shift I\u2019ve made is because I\u2019ve been playing in the NFL when I first started investing, I was doing a lot of turnkey properties or close to because I didn\u2019t have the time and I didn\u2019t feel comfortable enough overseeing rehab jobs, big projects essentially. And now, I\u2019m kind of to the point where I transitioned and I\u2019ve identified certain markets where I can get things off market for way below market value and add more value to them through renovation and then refinanced the whole birth strategy essentially.
And I\u2019ve had a lot of success in the last couple of months and even right now I\u2019m, going to be closing on a 6 plex in Tampa, Florida and I\u2019m essentially borrowed off market from a wholesaling team that I\u2019ve built a good relationship with and I\u2019m buying it cash. So been able to get a really great deal on it, going to put a little more cash in it to do it up, do it really nice.
And once again like Avril said, my assumptions are very conservative. I think I\u2019m going to be able to get 2K plus in rents. I\u2019m assuming I\u2019m going to be able to get 1600 and I feel like I\u2019m leaving a lot of room to be successful in planning for worst case or rents not to go up.
I\u2019ve also started to say, in a lot of markets I\u2019ve seen rents either stay the same or go down. So I\u2019m keeping my projections as the same for the next couple of years where it\u2019s, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s actually going to happen, but I don\u2019t want to be like, \u201cOh, in two years I\u2019m going to be able to get 2200 on this.\u201d I don\u2019t want to make those assumptions right now. I\u2019m keeping it conservative and if that happens I\u2019m going to be even happier.
So those are the kind of things and how I\u2019ve transitioned because of my understanding of real estate, the relationships I have and the deals that I\u2019m able to get by using capital and getting it back out once I refinance as opposed to what I did when I first started getting into real estate and buying turnkey or closer to turnkey style properties.<\/p>\n
I love that advice about being really conservative, especially right now given the economic climate with rent increases. The last couple years, it was safe to assume that rent was going to go up and now it\u2019s really flat and you\u2019re seeing a decline.
And when people ask me about how to underwrite deals, like you said Devon, I love putting myself in a position where it\u2019s great if I\u2019m wrong, I like to believe that I\u2019m right and like, \u201cYeah, it\u2019ll be flat, but if I\u2019m wrong, that\u2019s even better.\u201d So it\u2019s just a win-win situation. So I think that\u2019s great advice for this type of market.
If you\u2019re going to underwrite a deal, assume the worst because it is really uncertain right now, and if it still works and things aren\u2019t as bad as they could be, then you\u2019ll probably benefit.
One thing you both seem to do is invest in multiple locations and markets across the country. So I\u2019m just curious, Cliff, we\u2019ll start with you. How did you pick those markets? What type of analysis and research do you do?<\/p>\n
Oh man. So in the Midwest in particular, I went to Purdue. So I invest in Chicago in particular because one, my best friend, he was in my wedding and everything I met at Purdue, he\u2019s a GC. So as you all know, real estate is the ultimate team sport and football is the ultimate team sport. So I understand that you have to have the right pieces in place to be able to have some success. So I picked Chicago because I had a GC, I had a property manager that I\u2019ve known for years that is crushing it out there. So that\u2019s why I picked the Chicago market.
Now, obviously there\u2019s tenant laws and different things that you have to deal with a little bit out there, but that was okay because of the cash flow that I knew I was going to be able to get. And come to find out, the Midwest actually has been one of the more stable markets in the country during this little downturn.
But a couple, about a year and a half ago, people would\u2019ve been saying, \u201cWhy would you even invest in the Midwest?\u201d And then I\u2019m in the southeast region as well. I\u2019m in Huntsville, Alabama, growing market, great market, a lot going on out there. And my business partner actually put me into that market.
She owned a lot of real estate out there. There was a property that presented itself that was actually right next door to her property and they couldn\u2019t take the deal down by themselves. And she brought it to me and she already had the infrastructure, she had a property managed, she had the GC, she had contractors and different things like that already in place. So it was really just buying into her infrastructure and we were able to stabilize and we actually just cash-out refinance a few months ago on that deal in particular, but I\u2019m a big team player.
I understand that you need teammates and how I judge all these things is, \u201cHey, I\u2019m the general manager, my asset managers, the doggone quarterback and our contractors and everybody else is the old line.\u201d That\u2019s how we move. That\u2019s how we\u2019re going to make this thing happen. And again, there\u2019s a lot of football analogies, but that\u2019s definitely how I\u2019m moving and things have been working out so far.<\/p>\n
So as a GM, have you made any bad picks? Is there any of that?<\/p>\n
There\u2019s always bad picks. There\u2019s always bad picks, right? There\u2019s always going to be a few bad picks, but I\u2019ve been, knock on a wood, I\u2019ve been fortunate enough that it hasn\u2019t been any bad picks to the point where we\u2019ve lost money.
The deal might not have worked. I might had to sell it early and get out of it, but we didn\u2019t necessarily lose any money. We lost a little bit of time on that property, but we didn\u2019t lose anything. So I\u2019m very appreciative of that so far and hopefully we keep that trend going.<\/p>\n
Definitely the trend you want to stay on.<\/p>\n
For sure. And to answer your question for me, I would agree, I just say it a little differently. I look at the markets where I can find my core four. Here, people talk about the core four a lot, and where can I find a real estate agent? Where can I find the proper lending contracting team and property management? And then what I look at outside of that, is it a growing, is in an area that\u2019s growing? It just scale there.
I don\u2019t want to go somewhere where I\u2019m only going to buy one property because a lot of the stuff I look at is single family and smaller multi right now. So where\u2019s a market that I have the core four and there\u2019s opportunity to scale and when I identify those markets, then I\u2019m willing to invest there. So those are the main things that I kind of consider. And it\u2019s usually through referrals.
Maybe someone knows great real estate agent or broker in, that\u2019s how it happened for me in Tampa, actually through Kathy. Met a great real estate agent and team Kathy, Peggy, shout out. That\u2019s my girl. But I met through her and then I built a team out in Tampa through networking and that\u2019s why I\u2019m investing in Tampa right now. So if you can get your core four and you believe you can scale, then I invest in that market.<\/p>\n
And I agree exactly. I mean you have to have those that core four for sure, and any and every market that you go into and of course you got your market analysis. You got to see population growth, you got to see job growth, you got to see all these different things as well in these markets.
And these are all things that I know I\u2019m privy to and that I look at before I go into any market, but having some individuals that you can trust, I think goes a little bit further than just even some of the market analysis. Just having teammates that you can trust that they\u2019re not going to screw you over as well, right?<\/p>\n
Absolutely.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s such good advice. And so many people I think obsessed, especially if you\u2019re investing passively or out of state, they obsessed about what market to invest in. And I recognize that some of that is my fault because I regularly published lists of best markets to invest in.
But so much of it is about just developing the right team and like you said, it\u2019s a team sport. The difference between investing in Tampa and Jacksonville, just picking two random cities, it\u2019s probably not that much on average. And if you have a good team, I think you could either one could be better depending on how good your team is, it\u2019s not really about the city. There\u2019s so much more to it. So I think that\u2019s really good advice<\/p>\n
Yeah. To add to that for instance, in Ohio, I love the Midwest too and I know Cliff was mentioning the Midwest, but I don\u2019t really like my team in Ohio right now. So I\u2019m probably getting out of some of the stuff I have in Ohio.
It\u2019s cash flow great for me but my property management, I add a lot of issues. The city of Cleveland\u2019s giving me a lot of issues. I\u2019m just kind of over it. As opposed to another market, I\u2019m doing a lot of stuff in Tampa right now. My team seems to be clicking and it\u2019s great.
So it\u2019s like I know people making a ton of money in Cleveland and in Ohio in general, but it\u2019s been a bad experience. I don\u2019t really like the team I have and I\u2019ve been trying to fix it and it\u2019s just, I\u2019m kind of over it at this point. So I think that\u2019s a good testament right there.<\/p>\n
Well sometimes you got to fire the coach. You got to fire the coach.<\/p>\n
That just happen in Denver, is it Dave?<\/p>\n
I\u2019m not really a Broncos fan. Actually, Devon I\u2019m a Giants fan, so I remember when you went in Seattle. I just lived in Denver so I sort of like the Broncos.<\/p>\n
Don\u2019t be surprised when the Giants beat Philly, I\u2019m calling it right now. Ain\u2019t got nothing to lose. And Philly ain\u2019t hot right now.<\/p>\n
Dude, this is what the Giants do. They sneak into the playoffs and every five to seven years they somehow take that miraculous run through the playoffs and win despite all odds and other teams being better than them. So we have a track record of being successful like this. I think it\u2019s our year.<\/p>\n
But y\u2019all have Manning back there.<\/p>\n
I know, I know.<\/p>\n
They got some Hart.<\/p>\n
Anyway, well the last question I wanted to ask you guys before we get out of here is Cliff, you made a comment about this at the beginning that you\u2019ve, there\u2019s some things you\u2019ve learned in the NFL and as an athlete that you applied to your real estate investing career and I was curious what those lessons are.<\/p>\n
Yeah. No, I mean I feel like this is any space as far as for any profession, I feel like there\u2019s just a few different things that honestly separates people from having, quote, unquote, \u201csuccess\u201d in their profession, and it honestly, it\u2019s going to be the hard work, it\u2019s going to be consistency and you got to be all in, right? You got to be all in with the NFL in particular.
Part of the problem we talked about guys going broke and not investing and different things like that is because they\u2019re all in, they\u2019re not even worried about their money right now. They\u2019re all into this particular space right now because they just want to get playing time. They want to get to the new deal, but they\u2019re not thinking about, \u201cOkay, what\u2019s going on with their money?\u201d Now, I\u2019m not giving them an excuse or anything, I just know firsthand, you know what I mean? And so it\u2019s no different with the real estate game. I truly like this.
Before I got on call with you guys, I\u2019m running through Buildium and I\u2019m looking through making the who\u2019s delinquent? Who hasn\u2019t paid? Man, we got three vacancies. Every single day that\u2019s my life right now and I really like it, so applying those things.
And then I talked about earlier being the GM, having the quarterback as the property manager, having your contractors as the old line, really putting that, those analogies but that\u2019s really how I construct my business and how I\u2019m moving in this space. So that\u2019s kind of how and what I\u2019ve learned and I\u2019m trying to apply those same things in the real estate game and also my business.<\/p>\n
What about you Devon? Is there anything you\u2019ve learned that from being an athlete that translates to your investing career?<\/p>\n
I would kind of relate in, it\u2019s about building the team around me that fits what I need. Being on a football team my whole life, I play a certain role on my team. I have a certain skillset and making sure I surround myself with the individuals I need that\u2019s going to get the best out of me and it\u2019s going to allow me to focus on what I\u2019m best at. And I think that\u2019s no different in real estate.
So on football I\u2019m an edge setter. I\u2019ve always played the run really well. I\u2019m going to make sure that I\u2019m in a position where that\u2019s, I\u2019m able to always do my strong, what I\u2019m best at. What helps me do that, film study, recognizing formations, all of these different things. What\u2019s something that I\u2019ve never been known for necessarily? I haven\u2019t had a double digit sack season in my career. So I need to work on pass rushing. What do I do in the off-season? How dare a pass rush coach? I really put emphasis on my pass rushing. So I approach real estate the same way.
What I\u2019m naturally good at? I think one of my strong suits is networking, building relationships, kind of big picture seeing it. But I need people to help me with the specifics. I\u2019ve never put hammer to nail. I need a good contractor and good property management so I can understand it, but also who\u2019s going to be overseeing those kind of things. And that\u2019s really pivotal.
So understanding my strong suits and knowing where I need really strong teammates and players, that\u2019s going to help me get to where I\u2019m trying to go. So I think we can relate football to real estate in those ways, it\u2019s allowed me to scale faster and build the people around me that I really need.<\/p>\n
Devon, I really like that. It\u2019s sticking to what you know and you do. We do really well as investors in Seattle because we stick to what we know. We\u2019re not like we go after heavy value add where we can structure the deal. We have that construction background and it\u2019s the best way as you\u2019re going through a transition in market to mitigate risks too.
If you know what you\u2019re like right now, my buy-backs is sticking to what I\u2019m really good at. Whatever my teams are ready to go with, that\u2019s what I\u2019m buying. It\u2019s not, has nothing to do with liquidity. It\u2019s how well can we execute that plan. And I think that\u2019s really important for today\u2019s market.
And then as you\u2019re learning things, like he was saying, he\u2019s on the off-season, he\u2019s working on his pass rush and he\u2019s working on his edge setting. Those are things that you can take the step into but as we\u2019re in that transitionary market right now, stick to what you\u2019re really good at.
And if you\u2019re really good at it, there\u2019s less people competing with you too. So that buy opportunities are better in addition to how to maximize that deal, and that\u2019s where the spreads are. When people are a little bit freaked out right now, if you stick to what you\u2019re good at, you\u2019re going to get the best possible deal at what you\u2019re really good at.<\/p>\n
To elaborate on that too, I also think with real estate in particular, there\u2019s so many different ways of making money in real estate. You can be a wholesaler, you can buy a whole development, all these different things. So the hard part about real estate is the shiny object syndrome and trying to spread yourself thin, but correlating that with sports in general, it\u2019s only been a few players that can play two sports and be a pro at them. There\u2019s not that many guys that can do that.
So, know what you\u2019re good at, stick to it, focus, be all in on that and be great at that. Be great at pass rushing. That was my thing. I was a pass rusher. I set the edge with nothing I need to, but I\u2019m getting after your quarterback. That was my, so I know who I am and that\u2019s the lane I\u2019m going to stay in.
And it is the same thing with real estate. I want to buy multi-family properties. I want to buy value add multi-family properties, and I\u2019m going to hold onto them. I\u2019m going to cash flow the mess out of them. And then, like I said, I do spec homes here on the east side of Seattle and that\u2019s what I know what goes into that and I use those funds to go buy those assets that I\u2019m talking about. But that\u2019s my niche, that\u2019s my lane and I want to grow in that space and get better at it and hopefully become a pro bowler and a Super Bowl champion.<\/p>\n
That was a great way to exit. That was a quick walk off line. So now we got to end the podcast.
Well, we are out of time, so I just wanted, thank you both for being here, but just wanted to ask you, Devon, where can people connect with you if they want to learn more about what you\u2019re doing or follow your progress?<\/p>\n
You can find me on all social media @devonkennard, and then also my website www.devonkennard. I also have a book coming out in April, so it\u2019s all about financial literacy in real estate investing. So check that out. You\u2019re going to be able to pre-order here soon, so make sure you follow me on social media and stay tune in there.<\/p>\n
Awesome. That\u2019s great. Well, congratulations on the book.<\/p>\n
Thank you.<\/p>\n
What about you, Cliff? Where can people connect with you?<\/p>\n
Yes, all my real estate stuff is on TikTok @cliffavril, A-V-R-I-L. All my real estate stuff is on TikTok, but I\u2019m also on Instagram as well. So you can follow me there and get snippets of some of the stuff that I post on TikTok.
And before we leave as well, I want to let you guys know I\u2019m a big fan of the show On The Market. I kid you not, I listen to every single episode whenever they drop. Like this morning, I kid you not like, all I listen to is real estate podcast in general, but On The Market with you guys when you guys do the panel and everything else. I love it, man. Keep up the good work.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s awesome. Thank you so much. We appreciate that.
All right, well, Devon Kennard and Cliff Avril, thank you guys so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time.<\/p>\n
Thanks guys.<\/p>\n
Thanks for having us, Meyer.<\/p>\n
Thanks for having us. Appreciate you guys.<\/p>\n
Was that just a dream come true for you?<\/p>\n
It really was. Just anytime that we can bring on a Seahawk player or any athletes, I\u2019m all in on that show. I\u2019m just permanently requesting a panel spot for those shows.<\/p>\n
Oh yeah. Well, so after we finished recording the interview, we were just saying goodbye to Devon and Cliff and before, right before we were recording this and Cliff revealed that he is actually a fan of On The Market and listens to this show. And wait, was that actually, was that when we were recording?<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know if it was when we were recording, but I just had an idea we should get him a Seahawk jersey that says On The Market on the back. I\u2019m totally getting this.<\/p>\n
For either way, we should do that, but either way, I just wanted to know what it felt like for you as a diehard Seahawk fan to have a Seahawk legend tell you that he was a fan of what you\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m not going to lie, I was having flashbacks of when they won the Super Bowl against the Broncos, it was like I felt almost that good.<\/p>\n
Oh my God. Yeah. I can imagine that. That\u2019s pretty cool experience. Well, that was super fun. Fanboying and all, that was really insightful. I think that they both have really good perspectives and it\u2019s really just interesting to hear a little bit about how different people get involved in real estate even while they\u2019re in their career.
Because obviously being a real estate, excuse me, being an NFL player, this high profile thing, but I think what they were saying really applies to anyone, regardless of what career you have, it\u2019s about talking to your friends and your colleagues, normalizing discussions about money and investment and trying to help each other, building out your team. These aren\u2019t things that are necessarily just restricted to NFL athletes. It\u2019s for anyone who\u2019s trying to build a portfolio while they\u2019re in a full-time job.<\/p>\n
Yeah. It\u2019s all the basics, and their stories matched up with how we all got started. Cliff was saying he bought properties because he had a general contractor in that market that he knew really well and trusted. I mean, I did the same thing when I first bought my first big project, I hired a friend of mine because I trusted them and it says the same beginning steps and it was really cool to see that, because a lot of times too, sometimes it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, these athletes, they have a lot of money. They just put the money to work with these managers.\u201d
But they\u2019re doing the day-to-day stuff that we all do, making sure rents are collected. Going through the, they\u2019re going through their own performance and maybe checking them out. They\u2019re not just going off of people\u2019s words, but it\u2019s that same day repetitive stuff that we do as investors and they\u2019re doing it and doing well.<\/p>\n
Yeah, absolutely. I thought it was great and learned a lot. We were joking about making a show where James goes knocks on doors with NFL players and maybe we\u2019ll, that will be our OTM spinoff sometimes too.<\/p>\n
You know, I\u2019ll feel pretty safe if I\u2019m at a bad house with a big 300 pound lineman behind me.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh dude, the other thing I forgot about that I thought was so funny was Cliff said something. He was like, \u201cYeah, all those financial advisors tell you to buy a Rolls-Royce. That\u2019s the stupidest thing you could do.\u201d Jamil just bought a Rolls-Royce.<\/p>\n
Oh my God. I was dying. Whatever it was, the coconut or whatever. I was absolutely dying.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s so funny. I don\u2019t think Jamil would argue that it\u2019s a good financial decision though, but it\u2019s probably fun.<\/p>\n
No. I don\u2019t understand that. Yeah, you can buy a truck too. That\u2019s also a write off and cost a third as much.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. All right, well that was a lot of fun. Appreciate you being here, James. Just know everyone who knows who you are, but if they haven\u2019t connected with you in a while, where should they reach out to you?<\/p>\n
Good place to find us is on Instagram\u2019s an easy place, jdainflips or at jamesdainard.com. You can get more information from us and more tips on investing.<\/p>\n
Awesome. Great. And I am @thedatadeli on Instagram where you can find me. If you have any feedback about these shows, have any questions, hit up either James or I.
And if you like this show, please make sure to give us a five-star review on either Apple or Spotify. We really appreciate those reviews. If you\u2019ve been listening to the show, haven\u2019t done it yet, please go do it now. It will be a great help to us. Thanks again for everyone who\u2019s listening out there. We\u2019ll see you next time for On The Market.<\/p>\n
On The Market is created by me, Dave Meyer and Kailyn Bennett. Produced by Kailyn Bennett, editing by Joel Esparza and Onyx Media, researched by Puja Gendal and a big thanks to the entire BiggerPockets team.<\/p>\n
The content on the show On The Market are opinions only. All listeners should independently verify data points, opinions, and investment strategies.<\/p>\n