\n<\/p>\n
The way you manage your <\/strong>multifamily real estate<\/strong><\/a> could be the <\/em>defining factor when growing a bigger portfolio, reaching financial freedom<\/strong><\/a>, and leaving a lasting legacy. The \u201cDIY management\u201d style works for most real estate investors until <\/em>they build a significant stack of multifamily properties. Then, the toilet calls, tenant complaints, and late rent checks<\/strong> get a little exhausting when you\u2019re now taking care of dozens of tenants, not just two or three<\/strong>. So, what\u2019s the right way to scale with multifamily real estate <\/strong>without losing your hair?<\/p>\n We\u2019ve brought back multifamily investing experts Andrew Cushman <\/strong>and Matt Faircloth <\/strong>to explain how new multifamily investors can start to scale by making some strategic hires<\/strong>. Both of these battle-tested investing experts have dealt with their fair share of flaky property managers, late maintenance technicians, and asset managers who care more about a paycheck than building a profitable portfolio<\/strong>. They know exactly what does (and doesn\u2019t) make a good hire and how you can start scaling quicker <\/strong>by outsourcing work you once thought crucial for an owner to do.<\/p>\n Andrew and Matt break down the difference between a property manager and an asset manager<\/strong> and explain why these roles are commonly confused. They also hit on how essential operations are at a time when cap rates<\/strong><\/a> are starting to expand and many buyers have fled the market<\/strong>. Finally, they\u2019ll walk through the exact skills you should be looking for in an asset manager<\/strong>, property manager, leasing agent, and maintenance supervisor, so you can focus on growing your portfolio, NOT handling the day-to-day hiccups.<\/p>\n David: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Matt: David: Matt: David: Matt: David: Matt: David: Andrew: David: Matt: David: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Matt: Andrew: Matt: Andrew: David: Matt: Andrew: Matt: Andrew: Matt: Andrew: Matt: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Matt: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Matt: David: Andrew: David: Matt: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Andrew: Matt: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Andrew: Matt: David: Matt: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: Matt: Andrew: Matt: David: Andrew: David: Andrew: David: \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Help us reach new listeners on iTunes by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found here<\/a>. Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n Interested in learning more about today\u2019s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email <\/em>[email\u00a0protected]<\/span><\/em><\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n Note By BiggerPockets:<\/b> These are opinions written by the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of BiggerPockets.<\/p>\n
This is the BiggerPockets Podcast Show 739.<\/p>\n
So a property manager is somebody who does the day-to-day stuff. An asset manager is big picture, set the direction. So think of like a cruise ship. If you ever been on a cruise, there\u2019s the activities director and that\u2019s the person that works like 18 hours a day. They\u2019re running around always making sure the shows are on time, and dinner starts on time, and the right number of chairs on the deck, and all that little minutia that is important to making for a good cruise. The asset manager is the captain of the ship.<\/p>\n
What\u2019s going on, everyone? This is David Greene, your host of the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast, the biggest, the best, the baddest real estate investing podcast on the planet here today with a treat for you. I\u2019ve got two of my good friends and studly multi-family investors, Matt Faircloth and Andrew Kushman here to talk asset management and property management and operations at a bunch of stuff that will make you money if you get into this space and more importantly help you not lose money if you get into this space in the future.
Today is fantastic. We get into two really, really important points, forming your money-making team and then learning how to communicate with them and train them to communicate with you so that you can scale and build a profitable business, not buying an asset that makes you want to pull your hair out of your head and end up like me. We get into actual stories that these two have experienced as they\u2019ve managed multi-family assets for years now, so that you can learn from their mistakes and avoid your own as well as find the pieces that are most likely to help take you to the next level. Look, it\u2019s no surprise that the economy is shifting. We\u2019re heading into a recession and it\u2019s getting harder and harder to make real estate work now more than ever. It\u2019s important to understand how to actually operate the asset that you\u2019ve been being told for years you need to go buy.
Some of the things that you\u2019re going to learn if you listen today is where to find staff that will help you what to look for, questions to ask property managers, what to look for in a property manager before you hire them, the difference between an asset manager and a property manager, and what maintenance supervisors can do that can increase the NOI of your property and actually make it more profitable. That and more on today\u2019s show. You don\u2019t want to miss it. Before we get into the interview, today\u2019s quick dip is check the show notes. We\u2019ve got a list for you, 27 questions to ask a property manager before hiring them that comes directly from Matt and Andrew\u2019s experience doing this themselves. That is free for you. Thank you for listening. We love you. All right, let\u2019s get into today\u2019s show,
Andrew, Matt, welcome back to the BiggerPockets Podcast live for us, but not for the audience from Lake Tahoe at our winter retreat in GoBundance. Today we\u2019re going to be talking multi-family, but more specifically operation of multi-family. So let\u2019s start off with people that don\u2019t know the difference between a property manager and an asset manager. How would you describe that, Andrew?<\/p>\n
So a property manager is somebody who does the day-to-day stuff. An asset manager is big picture, set the direction. So think of like a cruise ship. If you\u2019ve ever been on a cruise, there\u2019s the activities director, and that\u2019s the person that works like 18 hours a day. They\u2019re running around, they\u2019re making sure the shows are on time, and dinner starts on time, and the right number of chairs on the deck, and all that little minutiae that is important to making for a good cruise.
The asset manager is the captain of the ship. Yeah. He\u2019s saying, \u201cAll right, we got a storm coming in. We\u2019re going to shift a little. We\u2019re going to shift a hundred miles to the right, go around the backside of the island. We need to make sure we get to this port in seven days.\u201d He\u2019s looking big picture, making sure that\u2019s going to happen. That\u2019s the difference between property management and asset management. And it\u2019s not a perfectly clearcut delineation, especially if you\u2019re doing smaller stuff like fourplexes and 10 units. It is more of a spectrum. And if you\u2019re self-managing and you\u2019re just starting out with your first fourplex, you\u2019re doing both jobs. But as you scale and grow, the difference becomes more and more important. And as an investor looking to create wealth, you\u2019re really going to want to focus on that asset management side. That\u2019s where the real money is made.<\/p>\n
So do you feel most investors are the asset managers themselves or is there a size of complex where you are actually going to leverage out asset management as well as property management?<\/p>\n
I\u2019d say most investors are the asset managers themselves. For example, I was my own asset manager until about a thousand units. And then once we got into over 2000 units, I started bringing on an asset management team to help with that because it becomes a full-time job. Even if you\u2019re not involved in the day-to-day property management, just managing\u2026 If you\u2019ve got 10 fourplexes scattered around town, even if you have an admin person to help with collections and filing evictions and all that, still you\u2019re going to be dealing with the lender. You need to decide, \u201cAm I going to sell this one in one year? Am I going to sell this one in two years? If I do sell it, what am I going to do with the money?\u201d And so there\u2019s a certain point\u2026 I think, again, I was my own up until a thousand, and I waited way too long.
And if I finally graduated, it was like Pinocchio. My business was like Pinocchio. It finally became a real business when I added some people to help me with that stuff. I remember that we were actually, maybe here in Tahoe when we were having that conversation about what it would look like to leverage off some of the work without leveraging off the actual vision casting, which I remember was like in your head you saw it as if I hire someone, I\u2019m giving up complete control as opposed to you\u2019re still creating the vision, but they\u2019re executing on the vision that you\u2019ve now cast for them. And I got to say, folks, his career has exploded since then and I\u2019m going to take as much credit as I can.<\/p>\n
No, yeah, you deserve some of the credit for that. You seriously do. We had a good couple good long talks and that helped. Well, I certainly benefit from it because we partnered together on [inaudible 00:05:41]. I can\u2019t say that I\u2019m not eating out of that same throughout.<\/p>\n
I just want to throw one more thing out, that you\u2019ve certainly rubbed off on Andrew a bit because he\u2019s now made two analogies in the first five minutes of this podcast. You\u2019ve made zero so far. So we\u2019ve got a cruise director analogy and we\u2019ve also got the Pinocchio \u201cI\u2019m a real boy\u201d analogy as well.<\/p>\n
Andrew\u2019s up to an early lead.<\/p>\n
Got some catching up with you, David Greene. So I will glad to keep score on the analogy scoreboard here during this podcast.<\/p>\n
All right. Matt, I\u2019m going to turn it to you now. God, in the last several years of real estate, we\u2019ve seen so much stimulus. We\u2019ve seen so much people that were getting into the syndication game in particular that had no experience at all. And the rising economy, it really was this perfume that covered up a lot of stink where. At the first minute we see a little bit of interest rate rising. It\u2019s like, \u201cOh, my God, this what\u2019s been going on the whole time. The lipsticks coming off the pig in a lot of these cases.\u201d What is your perspective on how important operations are compared to just acquisitions, which is where a lot of the attention is?<\/p>\n
Yeah. I mean, the last 10 years has simply been get into the game. You could have bought a multi-family and literally done nothing with it. Let it run into the ground, let tenants completely not pay the rent, let things go willy-nilly, let the grass grow three feet high, and sold it for a ton more than you bought it for. I mean really anybody could have gotten to this game, and guess what, anybody did. And there are lots of folks that are for 20 grand or whatever willing to teach you how to invest in real estate or whatever. And a lot of people did pay that kind of money to get into the multi-family game. And so now it\u2019s simply been get into the game and get a deal and crush your fingers and you can sell it in a year for a lot more than you paid for it.
That\u2019s worked up until recently with rising rates and the sellers can\u2019t just name their prices when they go to sell properties anymore. And so we\u2019re going to get back down to good old fashioned real estate investing where you\u2019re going to have to invest for cash flow and not appreciation. And, if you\u2019re going to invest for cash flow, if you\u2019re going to make an investment into a thing that is going to reward you for its performance, you have to have good asset management on the asset. You can\u2019t just cross your fingers and allow the rising tide that\u2019s risen for 10 years, right? Well, let\u2019s all high five. That\u2019s been great. It\u2019s helped everybody out. But that\u2019s not the future. Cash flow is going to be king I think for the foreseeable future. And to make that happen, you need asset management, KPIs, business plans, well-run properties, and you might not sell a year after you buy it.<\/p>\n
One thing I\u2019ve noticed, when you understand the fundamentals of real estate, first off, the whole thing gets so much more simple than when you ask for a blueprint of, \u201cWell, what am I supposed to do? Tell me exactly what to do.\u201d If you understand that apartments are, like the value of them or commercial property in general is a function of two pieces. You\u2019ve got a cap rate and you\u2019ve got NOI. And you can\u2019t control the cap rate and you can\u2019t control the NOI. That\u2019s very simple. Now there\u2019s things you can\u2019t control the cap rate much like you can\u2019t control the winds, but you can look at wind patterns inside of chart your course in a direction that will favor you. But ultimately, you can\u2019t control that versus NOI, which might to be like the guys in the bottom of the boat rowing. I\u2019m trying to catch up on analogies. You got a lot of them\u2026
You got two factors that determine the value of a commercial property. Then if you go within NOI, there are two factors that control that. You\u2019ve got income and you\u2019ve got expenses. It simplifies things. So operations is a lot about just the art of how do I minimize expenses and how do I maximize income. It\u2019s really that simple. So on that behalf, when we know that\u2019s the only part that you can control within multi-family real estate, and it\u2019s so important. What\u2019s your thoughts, Matt, on if you should self-manage or if you should leverage something that important to a third party?<\/p>\n
When I first got involved in real estate, I did not go straight into it. There actually are other things you can invest in besides apartment buildings. And so I started investing in single families and small multis and worked my way up through that. And there was a point where Liz and I were running 115 units with a small crew ourselves out of Trenton, New Jersey. And so we self-managed for a very long time. And it can be done. It was in essence a full-time job for me and a small team to do. But the money that we made doing it, \u2019cause we charged ourself a property management fee, was enough to keep our lights on and keep our family fed and live a fairly good lifestyle.
But there was a fulcrum that it was like a decision point where we were buying a 49-unit that was not in Trenton. It was a good bit away from there. It would\u2019ve forced me to have to start up a new PM company in a new market and that\u2019s what I wanted to do. But my wife, who normally has the better idea than I do, said, \u201cLet\u2019s try hiring a new PM to run this.\u201d And we did and they did a phenomenal job. I still believe we probably would\u2019ve done better, but they did good enough to keep the asset running. And with good asset management tactics, the property did very, very well and that enabled me to scale.
So I think in the beginning for those listening to this that don\u2019t have 2, 3, 400 units of, they maybe have a duplex, if you have a duplex and you want to eventually do this real estate investing business full-time, managing yourself it could be a lucrative enough business to feed your family, keep your lights on for now. And it\u2019ll also really help you develop the parameters of management because I learned the ins and outs of management in doing it myself and eventually I ended up giving it up to another party, but it taught me a ton and it also fed me very well while I did it.<\/p>\n
All right. Andrew, throwing to you. In your perspective, what are some of the pros and cons of each option?<\/p>\n
Yeah, Matt mentioned some of the pros. One is if you do it, scale it well enough, it can become another income stream. So it can be a balancing factor, stabilizing factor. Another thing that\u2019s often listed as a pro is that you have more control, and that is true, but the assumption there is that control and also that you care about your property more than anybody. So the assumption there is, \u201cWell, if I have control and I care about it more than anybody, then I\u2019m going to do a really good job. Well, caring doesn\u2019t equal competence.\u201d If my wife needs surgery for something, I\u2019m not going to walk into the OR and be like, \u201cHey, Doc, you know what? I care about her more than you. Let me take this.
No, I want the best. He could hate my guts, but if he\u2019s really good at that surgery and he\u2019s going to do it right, I want him to do that surgery. So that\u2019s a myth of caring equals competence and it doesn\u2019t. But, if you have the skills to go along with it, then yeah, that\u2019s a really good combination. On the flip side, some of the cons of property management is one of the most high headache businesses. You\u2019re basically running a giant HR firm. All you do all day long is deal with people problems and payroll and then delinquent tenants and evictions and courts and all that. And it doesn\u2019t pay that well. It\u2019s a very low margin, high stress business and it can be really draining, the people that I know they do it definitely say that.
And also that\u2019s something to keep in mind, property management is a separate business from real estate investing, so you are running two businesses if you decide to do that. How do you make a decision? We could do an hour long panel on the pros and cons and really dive in into that. It depends on what your end goals are, how many units you have. If you\u2019ve got one fourplex, you\u2019re going to learn some stuff from self-managing that in the beginning. So I would recommend self-managing. Where do you make the transition? That\u2019s stuff to say. Again, it\u2019s a spectrum. It\u2019s like, if you\u2019re a vegan and you\u2019re in into crossfit, how do you decide which one to talk about first? It\u2019s going to be different for every person and it depends on the situation.<\/p>\n
You guys are digging deep on this analogy thing, both you two. I mean really you\u2019re very competitive. I\u2019m really enjoying as a spectator sport, watching the analogy back and forth. All right, so on that note, Matt, when it comes to finding a property management company, if that\u2019s something that you\u2019re looking to do, what advice do you have for how to find a great company? Well,<\/p>\n
What\u2019s interesting is you could just look it up through your friends at Google, just Google PM companies in Albuquerque, New Mexico or whatever. But likely if you\u2019re buying a property, and let\u2019s pick Albuquerque because it\u2019s a fun name to say as the market that you want to invest in, you likely got to the property that you\u2019re looking at through other leads you have, probably a realtor that you\u2019re working with, probably maybe a mortgage broker that\u2019s local, maybe an attorney, maybe other real estate investor friends you have through meeting them on the BiggerPockets forums. So you ask for referrals, you talk to other people that are already active or already live or present in that market. And then you look for leads.
And then you\u2019re going to want to also find out what do they manage, right? Because if a property manager tells you that they can manage the strip center that\u2019s down the street from your property and they can also manage the duplex you\u2019re buying in Albuquerque and they can also manage a hundred-unit apartment building that\u2019s down the street, that\u2019s the wrong property management company. Those are three very different entities that manage things like that. So you want to make sure that their sweet spot, their core, their, and I\u2019ll throw an analogy out, the Goldilocks of them, not too hot, not too cold, just right is the asset that you have. You don\u2019t want them to be everything to everyone because property management\u2019s not that. There is a level of expertise that they need to bring to the table for the property that you\u2019re buying.<\/p>\n
So Andrew, when you find a company that you think could be good and you\u2019re looking to vet them, what are some questions that you\u2019d recommend people ask those companies?<\/p>\n
We got a whole long list of questions and we can provide a document with, we got 20 something of them. We can provide a link to that in the show notes. But some of the main ones, and Matt alluded a little bit to this, is what is their background? Is it a management company that just started two years ago? And are they a little green and inexperienced or have they been around for decades? And the founders, where did they come from? Were they ex-engineers because you don\u2019t want to trust those guys. Or for example, the management company that we hired was founded by two executives in a much bigger management company that got fed up with the corporate culture and said, \u201cWe could do better.\u201d
They jumped out, started their own and have done a really good job. So what is the background of the founders. Matt, you touched on this, asset and class specialization. You don\u2019t want to hire a property management company to run your 10-unit when their focus is self-storage. They\u2019re not going to have the knowledge and they\u2019re not going to have the efficiencies and they may not even care. Some management companies will take on assets they shouldn\u2019t just to get the revenue, but they\u2019re not going to do a good job with it. And also if you specialize in C-class properties, don\u2019t hire an A-class property management company because they will run your C-class way more expensive than it\u2019s able to support. And there\u2019s very different ways of running those. So it\u2019s not just self storage and multi-family, it\u2019s also class. You also want a management company that ideally specializes in your market.
There are some good national level property management companies. My preference is regional ones. So for example, the one we use, they only do the southeast United States so their footprint matches ours. They\u2019ve got like 26,000 units. So they\u2019re big enough that they have efficiencies of scale but small enough that I can call the owners of the company on their cell phone if there\u2019s a real issue and I need to get somebody. So I\u2019m asking questions, \u201cWell, what\u2019s your footprint? How many units do you have?\u201d How many units do they have in your submarket? So if a company has 10,000 units in Dallas and you\u2019re giving them a property in Lubbock, but they\u2019ve never managed in Lubbock, they\u2019re not going to be good in Lubbock. Number one, they\u2019re not going to take the time to go out there. Number two, they don\u2019t know the market. It\u2019s a very different market.
So those are some of the question. And then another one that is critical that I think a lot of people don\u2019t think to ask is you is really feel them out for what ideally Mr and Mrs. Property Management Company, what kind of relationship do you like to have with the owners of the property? Because if they\u2019re the type of property management company that wants you to go away and just read your report once a month, that\u2019s not going to work. That to me is a huge red flag. You want a property management company that sees you as a partner so that you can work together and grow together and build a relationship. And that to me is one of the biggest keys. And like I said, there\u2019s a whole lot more questions beyond that, but when I sit down to interview property management company, those are some of the things I\u2019m asking multiple questions to find out about.<\/p>\n
Matt, when it comes to hiring team members, so maybe like you were talking about what Andrew did when he started to scale so that he could get some of the stuff off of his plate that he was all doing himself. What are some things you\u2019ve learned over the years? We\u2019re going to talk to both you guys about this. Advice for other people that have some small multi-family or they have some large multi-family. They\u2019ve been doing everything themselves. They\u2019re burning out, or they want to scale, they want to go more. They\u2019re hearing us talk about, \u201cI want to be a real boy.\u201d<\/p>\n
Can\u2019t steal someone else\u2019s analogy. Thank you. Yeah, disqualified analogy reference. Thank you.<\/p>\n
Sustain. Andrew just objected off to the side. Your Honor, Objection. Overused. All right. So what are the things that you think people need to look for when they\u2019re hiring or be aware of?<\/p>\n
The property management and asset management are people businesses. And so people don\u2019t work at jobs forever. And so as a property management company and as an asset manager as well, you\u2019re going to be constantly hiring. I mean, Andrew, you can say both you and I own multi-family properties. It\u2019s always, well this maintenance technician quit or this site manager is found another job or the leasing agent left or whatever. So there\u2019s constantly the effort of replacing seats on the PM side. And so, there\u2019s the conversation of, \u201cIf I\u2019m self-managing, I maybe want to hire a new maintenance technician? So what do they bring to the table?\u201d When I first hired, one of my first hires was a maintenance technician and it was all about, I need somebody with a truck and a lot of tools on it. They can fix a lot of different things that knows about a lot of different stuff. The jack of all trades with a truck and a lot of the tools they need for those trades in the vehicle.
So if you are self-managing, that is maybe something you want to consider. So you\u2019re not beholden to hiring third party contractors every time you want to, like hiring a Roto-Rooter every time you want to get a plumbing. Your toilet backs up. It\u2019d be much better to have your maintenance tech with a plumbing rooting machine that he can do it himself. It\u2019ll be 10th of the cost of what a the plumber\u2019s going to charge. So I think it\u2019s about just finding the right person to fit in the role that you\u2019ve got open. So for self-managed, could be maintenance technician or somebody that\u2019s got bookkeeping background that could be your site manager, your office manager to collect rents, bill out rents, those kinds of things. And then I mean, Andrew, I know that that\u2019s something that we\u2019ve talked about before with regards to hiring asset managers. We\u2019ve had to do it. I know you\u2019ve done it too. For team members, for larger companies that are hiring field reps or asset managers for not property management, but next level, right?<\/p>\n
And I say one of the most common mistakes that I see large and small is somebody hires somebody for property management and then expects them to do asset management. If you\u2019ve got a leasing agent that\u2019s running\u2026 I\u2019ll give you an example when one of the first people that I brought on board was an admin and she started helping with some leasing and dealing with tenants and all that kind of thing. And a lot of times what happens is people bring on that person or a leasing agent or even a property manager if you\u2019re at a hundred units or whatever that might be, and then say, \u201cOkay, cool. This person\u2019s got it. I\u2019m out.\u201d And now what you\u2019ve done is now you\u2019ve made that property manager an asset manager and that is not what you hired them for and it\u2019s probably not their skill set.
So that\u2019s something to be aware of on your side, on the investor side and it is a very tempting thing to do. But when hiring team members, what we\u2019ve found is skills and experience are secondary. Number one is attitude and culture and fit. And when I say cultural fit, it\u2019s not only to you and your team, but also to your properties and your residents. So Matt, you\u2019re talking about maintenance people. That\u2019s what everybody does, \u201cI need a guy with a truck and he\u2019s got the tools and he actually shows up on time. Okay, that is a plus. And he\u2019s been a maintenance guy for 37 years and he is HVAC certified. Great. I\u2019m going to hire him.\u201d But if he smells like a three-day-old subway sandwich that\u2019s been left in the car in the summer and he\u2019s rude to the tenants, that\u2019s going to backfire on you because that maintenance person actually has more face time with the residents than almost anybody else in many cases, right?<\/p>\n
I\u2019m glad you brought that up.<\/p>\n
Yeah. So you\u2019re not just hiring for skills. Skills are important. It\u2019s not like check it out the window and hire anybody that smiles nice, but you have to have the right attitude and demeanor. Same thing with a leasing person. I can\u2019t tell you how many times I\u2019ve gone to a restaurant and either the concierge or the waiter just was so friendly and amiable. I\u2019m like, \u201cI want to hire this person and teach them how to be a leasing agent.\u201d
I mean, yes, you have to have the right location on your property, you have to have the right amenities, but the number one thing is the feeling, people remember feelings, how you make them feel. And so when someone walks in the door and they\u2019re greeted by a smile, or maybe if you got a four-unit, so your leasing person is meeting them at the unit to give them a tour. If that person that you added to your team gives that prospective resident a great personal experience and they were helpful and they were smiling and all that, it doesn\u2019t matter if they know the difference between pig tailing and aluminum wiring versus replacing using CO\/ARL outlets. That\u2019s great, but that\u2019s not going to make the big biggest difference.
So whether you\u2019re looking for a leasing agent, property manager, maintenance, any of these positions, again, whether you\u2019re hiring directly or part of third party, number one thing is attitude, culture, and demeanor. You can\u2019t teach that stuff. That is inherent. You can teach skills. And some of our greatest team members that today I just can\u2019t imagine living without came to us with zero multi-family experience, but they had an attitude of curiosity, of learning, friendliness, and just wanting to serve people.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s something that\u2019s very valuable for the listeners who want to get into this space or any space in real estate really to understand, we tend to look at this stuff where, \u201cI need a mentor, I need someone to teach me what am I supposed to do.\u201d As if once you have the knowledge, it\u2019ll all just fall into place. But the people we know that are successful at this, you two, neither one of you are people who just have information but your butt holes.
If you don\u2019t know hardly anyone who\u2019s really\u2026 Unless they\u2019re just incredibly savvy and they can get away with being a jerk, it\u2019s very rare that you see that, right? In general, you don\u2019t see successful people that aren\u2019t good with other people. And so having that ability to make someone feel good, to make people to feel comfortable trusting you, raising money I don\u2019t think\u2026 Bren and I were talking about this, when somebody brings an operating agreement to you or a private place, a memorandum and they\u2019re like, \u201cHere\u2019s the perspective deal,\u201d not only do you not know if it\u2019s going to work out like they said, you can\u2019t even know if they just made up those numbers. How do we ever go back and verify. You don\u2019t have the skill to do that otherwise you probably wouldn\u2019t be the LP in the deal.
You are trusting the human being, the feeling that they give you and then if you\u2019re smart the track record that they have. So learning those skills, it\u2019s like the cap rate versus the NOI. Cap rate plays such a bigger role in the properties value going up than the NOI, but the NOI is a thing you can control. You can skills, but if you can get the people skills down, it has an astronomically larger impact on the value. Just like if you bought a property at eight cap and it compressed to a two cap. It almost doesn\u2019t matter what happened with the NOI. It\u2019s so much bigger. The successful people we see, especially here, get lucky right there. Well, yeah, I mean the way that the math works. That would be more valuable.<\/p>\n
Yeah. The bottom line\u2019s just don\u2019t be a jerk. People skills and being able to take care of people and address their needs and think the big picture is really one of the largest assets out there that any business owner can have.<\/p>\n
All right. Matt, when it comes to a good property manager, what are some skills that they should have?<\/p>\n
I think that, you don\u2019t want a property manager that is always late for your calls. You can use little cues about, well, I had sent my property manager an email and it took them four days to get back to me. And every week I have a Zoom call with them and they show up 15 minutes late. They\u2019re always scattered. So just all bottomlines are organizational skills. A property manager is literally the best juggler out there. They\u2019re dealing with, I got collections coming up, and I got rent\u2019s doing in the fifth, and I got those three HVAC units stopped working, and that tenant wanted me to call him back, send me a question. So a property manager needs to be in the middle of so many different things and handling a fairly large to-do list, and the to-do list could be a lot of different things all at once.
And so they need to be a hundred percent organized and there are little tests you can use to figure out how organized somebody is or signs you see for people that are unorganized, they need to be as they\u2019re one of the best needs for people persons and warm. The property managers that I have that are really good at what they do. The tenants view them as almost like the parent of the apartment complex. It\u2019s like the apartment building, \u201cThis is the mom or the dad that I go to.\u201d And they treat the tenants like they\u2019re their children in some ways because they keep them under their wing, they look out for them, they do everything they need. When the tenant needs something, they\u2019re right on it. And I think on top of that\u2026 like a good parent, you resolve needs.
\u201cOh, your HAVC\u2019s not working, that\u2019s fine.\u201d Well, you also need to be able to be disciplinarian. \u201cWell, you didn\u2019t pay your rent this month, and so I\u2019m not going to just allow you\u2026 You it back to me next month. You can\u2019t be a pushover as well.\u201d And they\u2019ve got to have that no BS attitude when it comes to being a property manager. You must have to be like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde in some ways to be willing to go tough on a tenant and not let them walk on you, but also be likable and respectable to what the tenant is going to respect you and know that you\u2019ve got their back and they\u2019re going to want to stay there for a long time because they know that you\u2019re going to take care of their stuff as it comes up.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I mean, when I look at our best property managers, there\u2019s I say eight distinct traits. One, good organization skills. Matt, like you said, they\u2019re handling invoices and payments and checks and evictions.<\/p>\n
And never drawing the ball.<\/p>\n
Yeah. And requests from their owners and all kinds of stuff like that. You being very responsive to resident requests, even the ones that are annoying or seem silly or petty because it doesn\u2019t matter. To that resident, it\u2019s important. And the ability to separate those two things. You can still be annoyed, just don\u2019t let the residents see that. Give them the respect. Matt, you touched on this, a balance of heart and no BS, empathetic, kind, understanding, but rent is due just like the mortgage is due and the property taxes are due you. I\u2019ve seen a lot of investors get into trouble by being too empathetic. There\u2019s a difference between, well, there\u2019s a difference between empathy and sympathy. Empathy is understanding the person, whether they\u2019re Susan\u2019s sympathy is more of like, \u201cOh, yeah, okay.\u201d<\/p>\n
Well, you\u2019re getting involved.<\/p>\n
Yeah, it\u2019s getting involved. That\u2019s better. Yeah. Sympathy is getting involved, empathy is more understanding. And sympathy is like, \u201cWell, all right. It\u2019s okay. I understand. You can just make up the rent next month.\u201d Guess what happens next month, \u201cOh, you know what, I got a flat tire.\u201d<\/p>\n
I\u2019m going to treat you.<\/p>\n
Yeah. This why I don\u2019t manage anymore. I\u2019m too nice. I\u2019m that guy. When they told me, \u201cWell, my car got a flat tire,\u201d I believe them. \u201cOkay, I\u2019ll let you pay me next month and we\u2019ll just do an attack in our next month\u2019s rent and whatever.\u201d There are certain people that are cut out to be property managers that are able to approach the world with a hammer in one hand and a hug in the other. For me, always the hug guy, very, very big heart and everything like that, but I\u2019m not one that is very good on the hammer side with tenants and everything like that. So I got walked on quite a bit as a property manager, so I don\u2019t do it anymore.<\/p>\n
You two, you should team up because you\u2019re the hugger and he\u2019s the hammer.<\/p>\n
Yes, that works out. Right. Right.<\/p>\n
And the fourth thing is they got to be able to build good rapport with other team members, whether again yours or third party. Ideally they treat the property like it\u2019s theirs. I\u2019ve got some managers that\u2026 It\u2019s amazing. I swear they act like they own it more than I do. And it\u2019s amazing the difference that that makes. And when we try to recognize and honor and reward that, it\u2019s not just, \u201cOh, cool, I got this person who\u2026\u201d And we encourage that and give them more autonomy to do things. We have a manager that just decided, \u201cWell, I think that side of that building would look better a different color.\u201d She went and painted it. And the regional was like, \u201cWhat are you doing?\u201d And I was like, \u201cNo, no, no, no.\u201d We trust her and guess what, \u201cThat looks great. Do the rest of the property.\u201d No, again, not everyone is cut out for that autonomy, but someone who like\u2026 Well, they could still bring it up to you.<\/p>\n
Exactly. Exactly.<\/p>\n
Get this thing and get permission. In this specific example, she knew we were okay with her doing that thing because she\u2019s so good. But you\u2019re exactly right. It\u2019s the sense of ownership. Just noticing, \u201cThis would look even better if we painted out this.\u201d I want to do a 90 day challenge where people who are struggling to get a promotion or make more money or have success, just say for 90 days, \u201cTreat everything of the person you work for, if you live in a property, treat it like it\u2019s your own.\u201d If it\u2019s your boss and you think, \u201cIf this was my company, what would I want to do?\u201d And see if that doesn\u2019t absolutely change your life.<\/p>\n
You know what, you\u2019re right because when we have a resident that comes out and they pick up the trash around the unit, even if it\u2019s not from theirs and you go in their unit and it\u2019s sparkling clean, everything\u2019s nice and organized, we are definitely more inclined to give them a little bit leeway.<\/p>\n
Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. It\u2019s like it\u2019s magic. Make people like you and you make people trust you. Like you said, the best point there when she took it upon herself to paint it, we said, \u201cGo ahead and paint the rest of the property.\u201d And you immediately thought, \u201cHow do I give them more responsibility, more freedom, more autonomy, more all the things we say we want.\u201d We all complain about the micromanaging boss, but we don\u2019t ask the question of ourselves like, \u201cWell, what might I be doing that needs micromanaging?\u201d Yeah, it\u2019s always a shift in responsibility onto someone else. That\u2019s why I would encourage people to treat things like it\u2019s their own, because when you\u2019re the person who\u2019s the king, heavy is the head who wears the crown and you\u2019re worrying about everything, when you see the person willing to carry the burden with you, it automatically opens your heart to where you want to give more.
Dave Osborne told a story of how Matt King, who\u2019s now the CEO of GoBundance, became his first assistant where Matt said, \u201cHey, your wife\u2019s coming to visit you. I\u2019m going to go clean up your hotel room before she gets here.\u201d Matt could have even said something, \u201cNot my wife. I don\u2019t care.\u201d But he is like, \u201cIf my girlfriend was coming, I would want her to come into a clean hotel room.\u201d I\u2019ll treat Dave like I would treat myself. And lo and behold, he\u2019s now running Dave\u2019s empire.<\/p>\n
I think the missed point there is that Matt knew that Dave\u2019s room was going to be an absolute mess when his break.<\/p>\n
I know. He\u2019s like, \u201cListen, I know your room\u2019s a train wreck right now and so I\u2019m going to go and help.\u201d The intuition was there.<\/p>\n
I mean, Krista, she\u2019s smart enough to say, \u201cHey, so this thing was added to your calendar today.\u201d She\u2019ll send me a text message, just to say, \u201cMake sure you see this.\u201d She knows me. I will not check my calendar. I look at it in the morning and I see what I have to do and I\u2019m done. That\u2019s part of putting yourself in other people\u2019s shoes and taking responsibility is thinking like, \u201cIf I was that person, this is what I would need.\u201d So I think that\u2019s really good advice. You have about two or three more I think.<\/p>\n
Yeah. Number one, we touched on this really as someone ideally that\u2019s really engaging with residents and the rest of the team member. Also somebody, and this is when you\u2019re starting to scale up and get a little bit bigger, somebody that can help guide the team. So you get a manager, well then you add a leasing agent, now you\u2019ve got a maintenance supervisor, and then you add a maintenance tech or a grounds person, whatever, that property manager is someone who can have a 10-minute meeting with the maintenance person in the morning and say, \u201cAll right. Here\u2019s our work orders. Let\u2019s prioritize them. Go out. Take care of that.\u201d And then she checks in at the end of the day, which one\u2019s got done, which one didn\u2019t, why. \u201cHey, leasing agent, do this.\u201d And can coordinate and do all of that.
And then finally somebody that is good at delegating work because the property manager can fall into the same trap that we as entrepreneurs fall into. We\u2019re going to do it all ourselves because that\u2019s what got us here. And that\u2019s actually something we\u2019ve had to help some of our property managers grow through is, \u201cNo, look, you\u2019ve got a lot of units. Let\u2019s get you a leasing agent and delegate this.\u201d Or you shouldn\u2019t still be doing these invoices day after day after day. This other person should do it. And then you just verify that they did it. So ideally it\u2019s somebody that can delegate work so that they can grow and as you scale. Hopefully they can move up and scale with you.<\/p>\n
Now, Matt, will you talk briefly about, Andrew mentioned a leasing agent should be a friendly personality. He\u2019ll see people sometimes working in retail like, \u201cOh, you should be the one answering the phone when people call or meeting him with you. What are some other things that make someone a good leasing agent?<\/p>\n
The best leasing leasing agents I\u2019ve seen are ones that are able to a bit of a drive and that are somewhat financially motivated. And the best thing to do with a leasing agent is offer them some sort of a bonus, even if it\u2019s not like a typical realtor will get half a month\u2019s rent or something like that as commissioned. At a larger property management company, it may be just something smaller than that because that leasing agent may lease eight or nine units every couple weeks. So it can add up to be something significant. So it\u2019s got to be someone who sees that, \u201cThe more I hustle and the more I grind and help fill this property up or help keep vacant units full, the more money I\u2019m going to make. Have that alignment and that 50 bucks, a hundred bucks, whatever, per signed lease that they get as their incentive on top of their base salary needs to mean something to them.
They have to be hungry for that. I also find that they\u2019re typically charming. They\u2019re good closers, right? You can\u2019t allow a tenant that, \u201cOh, I\u2019ll just come back and in a week,\u201d or whatever it is. A good leasing agent\u2019s got to say, \u201cHey, listen, I\u2019ve got three other showings this afternoon. Don\u2019t\u2019 you think you want to turn into rental application? Isn\u2019t this unit great?\u201d And finally, they\u2019ve got to think that what you are providing is the best thing since sliced bread, right? They\u2019ve got to like that, \u201cWe had a pool here in this property.\u201d Or, \u201cThere\u2019s a grocery store down the street even. It doesn\u2019t have to be a property with a pool. Even if they\u2019re showing your fore family, they\u2019re just listing amenities, know the area. \u201cDid they\u2019re building a new shopping mall down the street, or did you realize the gas station\u2019s adding a Quicky Mart or a drive-through car wash or whatever?\u201d
They got to know the area and let the perspective tenant know like, \u201cThis is a good area that I\u2019m moving into. And this is a good unit I\u2019m moving into.\u201d They\u2019ve got to know the amenities as well onsite. They\u2019ve got to be an expert for the property and make everything they\u2019re talking about the most exciting thing ever. So I think those are great attributes for leasing agents and also good at following up, good at closing because not everybody\u2019s going to follow up on a\u2026 Is going to sign a lease right then, so they\u2019ve got to do follow through and reach outs and everything. And one more thing, in the modern world, I just described a great leasing agent, but a stellar next level leasing agent is someone who\u2019s good on social media and can do Instagram posts for your property, that can do Facebook posts for your property, that can take ownership of your Google Pin Drop of the social media assets of your property as those are the next level stellar leasing agents.<\/p>\n
So speaking of social media, we were doing a weekly call with one of our property management teams and I asked her, \u201cWhere did these leases come from?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cOh, this one, this one, this one, these two came from TikTok.\u201d \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean these leases came from TikTok.\u201d \u201cOh, yeah, I do all these\u2026\u201d So turns out multiple times a day she puts these little TikTok videos out and the property has this huge following and she\u2019s getting leases off of it. And I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, can you please teach our other managers how to do this?\u201d And some of them are like, \u201cOkay, great. I\u2019ll learn how to do this.\u201d I\u2019ve got one that\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t do TikTok.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cAll right, fine. I\u2019m not going to force you to do it.\u201d So yeah, social media skills, that was something that our whole team and business learned because that manager was doing it, again, on her own without me even saying anything. And I\u2019m Like, \u201cWait, wait, wait, you can get lease off TikTok?\u201d \u201cSure can.\u201d
I\u2019m often the person that someone in my sphere will call with the real estate question, whatever it is. So frequently I\u2019ll get old friends or people that are actually trying to figure out what apartment they should move into. I\u2019m a real estate guys, so they call me, like I know how to answer.<\/p>\n
Oh, yeah, that one right there.<\/p>\n
[inaudible 00:40:21] an apartment in my life. But I noticed that when they\u2019re in that point of, \u201cAm I going to go with the whispers, the lakes, or the heights?\u201d They\u2019ll create this list of all the amenities they have and then compare the rents. There\u2019s a deep analysis that most tenants are going to go into when they\u2019re picking where they\u2019re moving because ideally they\u2019re going to live there for a while. They don\u2019t want to pack up and move constantly. \u201cThis was 2000 a month and it\u2019s in this location, but it doesn\u2019t have a pool and it doesn\u2019t allow pets. This one does allow pets and it\u2019s only 2,500 a month, but blah, blah blah.\u201d
They really put a lot of effort into looking at this and when you\u2019re in a position like that, that you\u2019re that engaged in where you\u2019re going to go, I absolutely believe that a leasing agent that\u2019s following up, that\u2019s selling them on why they\u2019d be happier in the heights versus the whispers or whatever, is absolutely a game changer. That is such a big thing when you\u2019re trying to make a decision and you don\u2019t want to make the wrong one. When you have that reassuring voice that\u2019s making you think\u2026 Most people, as weird as this is, receive that as God must be telling me to move to this one because this person called, we always give that credit-<\/p>\n
Sign. It\u2019s meant to be.<\/p>\n
Divine intervention. They followed up just as I was trying to figure this out. Now after you show them the apartment, they\u2019re probably going home that night to talk to their boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, and say, \u201cWhere do you want to move?\u201d There\u2019s a high probability that\u2019s what they\u2019re doing when you divinely intervene and call at 8:30 to just be like, \u201cHey, did you have any questions? I\u2019d really like to have you here. I thought we got along really good.\u201d \u201cOh, my gosh, they want us. We\u2019re welcome.\u201d \u201cWe don\u2019t even have a dog. Let\u2019s go over there.\u201d Just that one little thing can absolutely make a huge difference.<\/p>\n
Let me to add on to that. And the reason for that is most people don\u2019t go the extra mile. And so when you do, it is surprising to people, right? It\u2019s like you normally don\u2019t get followed up with like, \u201cHey, how was that?\u201d Like, \u201cHey, you had your oil changed here at this at this shop or whatever. How was it? Were you happy?\u201d I don\u2019t get that phone call. And so when you do, they\u2019d be like, \u201cHey, they actually care. That\u2019s a good place. Oh, I\u2019m going to go there forever. And we\u2019re lease that apartment because this person actually picked up the phone and called me.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n
Matt, you made a really good point earlier that I think highlights the difference between asset management and property management. And when you said talked about aligning your team members\u2019 interests with the success of the property. Most property management companies, if you ask them, \u201cWhat should we pay this person?\u201d They\u2019re like, \u201cWell, market\u2019s between 24 and $27 an hour, so we\u2019ll set it at 25.\u201d And that\u2019s the answer you\u2019ll typically get. A good asset manager\u2019s going to say, \u201cOkay, great, that\u2019s market.\u201d But if my property has a net operating income of a hundred thousand dollars each year, I\u2019m hitting my targets. If it hits 120, I\u2019m crushing it. So what if I set it up so past a certain target, the property manager gets a certain percentage of every dollar above that. Well guess what, now their income goes up with as yours goes up.
And we\u2019ve done that with a lot of our properties and it\u2019s worked wonders because the property manager know, \u201cHey, if I work at extra hard on this, it\u2019s not going to just make some investors across the country or some dude in California more money, it\u2019s also going to make me more money.\u201d We have a property manager that makes more than the regionals above him because he has knocked it so far out of the park. And I am so glad to pay him literally double market because when you look at how much he\u2019s making us, it\u2019s almost irrelevant because he\u2019s doing so well. So that is a good asset manager skill is to make sure\u2026 Even if it\u2019s your admin person, find some way to align their success with yours so that you\u2019re always growing in the same direction.<\/p>\n
So when it comes to maintenance supervisors, this is another pretty big piece because poor maintenance will make people not want to live there anymore. I think most people in general will stay where they are until something happens that disrupts their peace. So the neighbor next door is too loud. Their first thoughts is probably, \u201cGet management to fix it. If it doesn\u2019t get fixed, I\u2019m moving.\u201d Or something\u2019s broken that won\u2019t get fixed. Everyone has a tolerance. And then at a certain point they just get to the point they\u2019re like, \u201cI have to leave to fix this.\u201d And the vacancies are very expensive, both because you\u2019re leasing agent now you have to pay someone to go and refill it, plus the period of time no one\u2019s occupying, it\u2019s vacant. And then the turn, you got to repaint and redo all this stuff. So maintenance supervisors can actually help to keep your expenses lower. What\u2019s two things that each of you guys think that you would highlight as when it comes to maintenance supervisors? What are the most important things that you can recommend?<\/p>\n
I mean, I think we\u2019re going to operate on the base assumption that whoever you\u2019re talking about has basic maintenance skills. They know the difference between a Phillips and a flathead, which is about as far as I can get. So I don\u2019t have any better analogies than that. Number one is eager to contribute. And what I mean by that is they are, it\u2019s not just, \u201cOkay, I got these five work orders. As long as I get these done today, I\u2019m fine.\u201d Well, maybe they\u2019re out working on work order number two and they see that the next resident over, their door just jams. It\u2019s gotten absorbed the moisture and it doesn\u2019t fit anymore. So every time they see them coming out and be like, shoving their shoulder. \u201cOh, hold on a second.\u201d They come over, adjust the hinges, \u201cOh, look.\u201d And get it fixed for them in like five minutes.
It doesn\u2019t need a work order. And then they\u2019re someone that is eager to help out the manager just wherever things come up. One example I can think of is we have a maintenance supervisor that we recently hired and he comes to our calls with a notepad and has a list of things to go over and then takes notes on the things we talk about so that he can go follow up on them and get it taken care. And we never even asked him to do that. I mean he\u2019s just that eager to contribute and be a part of it. So that\u2019s huge. And then one other one is I would also say, and they\u2019re tied together, is that a maintenance person who understands it\u2019s a team effort.
Yeah. Okay. He\u2019s got five work orders to do, but he may have a contractor that onsite that\u2019s renovating unit that he\u2019s got to make sure the supplies are there and that the manager, property manager is there to make sure he got the supplies order. Because typically maintenance doesn\u2019t order their own supplies. Sometimes that\u2019s not the case, but often it\u2019s a team effort with, \u201cOkay, we need this. The manager makes sure.\u201d And just being willing to step in and help out wherever needed. And being on call is candidly probably one of the worst aspects of being a maintenance person at an apartment complex, \u2019cause you\u2019re going to get call at 2:30 in the morning on Christmas that someone shoved a teddy bear down the toilet and now it\u2019s flooding the unit.
Not that anyone\u2019s ever going to enjoy that, but somebody that is able to say, \u201cAll right, this is part of servicing this community and things like this are going to happen.\u201d And hopefully as a good asset manager, you\u2019ll make that up to them on the back end. We\u2019ve had situations like that and we will send that maintenance person like a gift card like, \u201cGo take your wife to dinner. Our property ruins your New Year\u2019s Eve.\u201d<\/p>\n
Okay, we understand. Sorry about that. And thank you for answering your phone and going and taking care. That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n
Yep.<\/p>\n
To add into there, it is funny, it just seemed to be a common theme across the property management team, therefore the site manager, leasing agent, whatever is a sense of ownership. And the way a sense of ownership shows up for the maintenance technician is things like, \u201cWell, we\u2019re 20 work orders back this month, so that means that these 20 tenants are waiting on me to do a thing for them are now waiting and that\u2019s not okay. And so I need to pick up the pace. I need to knock out these work orders.\u201d Whatever. A bad maintenance tech\u2019s going to shrug their shoulders and say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s all-\u201d<\/p>\n
I get to it when I get to it.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I get to it when I get to it. And we\u2019ve all seen maintenance techs that have that philosophy and there\u2019s also the hustle maintenance technicians that are like, \u201cListen, that\u2019s not acceptable. These people need me.\u201d Then that\u2019s a sense of ownership and they really take\u2026 Showing up to the calls of the notepad. We\u2019ve had maintenance techs tell us like, \u201cListen, we were giving unit turns,\u201d meaning when a unit vacates, the onsite maintenance were the guys that were turning the units around. They came to us and said, \u201cHey, we need a little bit of help. And that world on unit turns \u2019cause had a lot of agencies show up and they asked us for help because they knew they couldn\u2019t maintain their work order flow and it was not going to be okay for work order balance to get way out of whack because they knew that that was something, that was like ownership.
They knew they were responsible for that. So they said, \u201cCan we bring in a little bit of short term help to help us do some painting, to help us do the trash out?\u201d Whatever. And we said, \u201cSure, absolutely.\u201d Because we knew they cared. That\u2019s why they asked for that. And it wasn\u2019t \u2019cause they didn\u2019t want to do the work. It\u2019s because their obligations were going to start falling off the plate.<\/p>\n
Yeah. And there\u2019s one last thing I want to address. So anyone listening might be saying like, \u201cThat\u2019s great guys that the three of you have all these wonderful maintenance pairs of people. I\u2019m just trying to get someone to actually show up and do something on time.\u201d That\u2019s our problem too right now. I mean, Matt and David and I are at the scale where we have these team members in place, but maintenance is probably the hardest position for us to fill right now. And we have unfortunately hired people that don\u2019t fit these characteristics we just talked about and we\u2019ve had to let them go. So if you\u2019re sitting there going, \u201cWell, that\u2019s great, all these ideal characters. I just want some character traits. I just want someone to show up.\u201d Yeah, we\u2019re having that problem too. It\u2019s not just you. Hopefully if the Fed does create more unemployment, hopefully one of the side benefits is that it\u2019ll get easier to find good people. But that\u2019s a problem that we\u2019re having too. So if you\u2019re experiencing that, don\u2019t feel bad. It\u2019s probably not you.<\/p>\n
Everybody\u2019s kissing frogs. We talk about the ideal person. That doesn\u2019t mean that you get them on the first try or even the 10th try. It\u2019s often a actual skill of figuring out how you can find the right people, which is why you treat them so good when you have them because you want them to treat your property, and they\u2019ll probably treat it closely to the way that you treat a lot of the time. Well, thank you guys. This has been fantastic. And it\u2019s on a topic we don\u2019t really talk about very often because it\u2019s just been buy as much real estate as you can, borrow other people\u2019s money, go in there fast, loose, and reckless, just spray and prey and you\u2019ll hit the target a couple times and you\u2019ll make a lot of money. And that target\u2019s getting a lot tighter and it\u2019s getting a lot harder.<\/p>\n
\u201cIt\u2019s going to work in the future.\u201d<\/p>\n
That\u2019s exactly right. So before I get you guys out of here, Matt, where can people find out more about you?<\/p>\n
They can hear about me on our company website, derosagroup.com, D-E-R-O-S-A-group.com. Or they can follow me on Instagram at themattfaircloth.<\/p>\n
Matt\u2019s also written a book for BiggerPockets. What was that book?<\/p>\n
That was called Raising Private Capital. And that\u2019s something really exciting. And I think that investor relations and the way that you raise more money for your deals and the way that you treat investors that you already have into your deals is going to be something that\u2019s going to become even more, it\u2019s always important, but even more important in the changing economy. So everybody should check out Raising Private Capital at biggerpockets.com\/store.<\/p>\n
All right. And Kush, where can people find out more about you?<\/p>\n
Just search Vantage Point Acquisitions website is vpacq.com. Also call a colleague request me on BiggerPockets so we can connect there. And if you\u2019ve made it all the way to the end of this podcast and at either you\u2019re someone who loves asset management or you\u2019re like, \u201cI really want to learn that,\u201d three out of our last four additions to our team have come from the BiggerPockets listeners. There are some amazing people who listened to this podcast and we are looking for another one. So if you\u2019d like to come work with us in on the asset management side of the business, please go to the website. There\u2019ll be a tab there and a link there to apply. And I look forward to hopefully working with you.<\/p>\n
Yeah. And I can co-sign on that. Andrew is my multi-family partner. We buy properties together and the people that have come to work for us have been fantastic. And they have actually made a lot of progress with their own portfolios as well. It\u2019s a really, really good way to learn when you\u2019re working for someone that\u2019s going to hold you to a high standard, teach you things to do things the right way, model for you the right way to approach it. And those habits that are developed are the stuff we talked about earlier with the attitude and the personality that you\u2019re bringing to the job matter a lot. So please, if you\u2019re into multi-family, consider reaching out.
All right guys, I am going to get you out of here. Thank you very much for taking time out of your Lake Tahoe [inaudible 00:53:07] to talk some multi-family with me and our listeners. And hopefully this helps a lot of people. We\u2019ll see you next time.<\/p>\n
See you then.<\/p>\n
This is David Green for Matt \u201cThe Scorekeeper\u201d Faircloth and Andrew \u201cThe Hamburgler\u201d Kushman stealing all my analogies signing off.<\/p>\n