\n
Ashley:
This is Real Estate Rookie, episode 271.<\/p>\n
Ava:
First, you need to determine an asset class you want to do, and then you need to educate yourself on it and make that step-by-step checklist. Because once you have that checklist and it\u2019s so much, because it seems so crazy when there\u2019s a whole bunch of things, you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I have to do this, I have to do this. I\u2019ve talked to insurance people.\u201d But if you just lay it out on a checklist step-by-step in front of you, it cancels out all the noise because all you have to focus on is that next step. And if you have due dates by it, it\u2019s great for setting goals.
So I recommend just figuring out what asset class you want to do and just choose one, whether it\u2019s multifamily Airbnbs, arbitrage, anything, and then make that checklist with a step-by-step, actionable steps that you can take.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
My name is Ashley Kehr and I\u2019m here with my co-host, Tony Robinson.<\/p>\n
Tony:
And welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast, where every week, twice a week we\u2019re bringing you the inspiration, motivation, and stories you need to hear to kickstart your investing journey.
And today, I want to shout out someone by the username of gzreta9 and gzreta says, \u201cAmazing podcast. This is the best podcast to listen to when you are starting your real estate journey. Tons of information, super easy to follow. Thanks to the host, Ashley and Tony who have great personalities and keep every episode interesting and fun to listen to. It\u2019s also very helpful to listen to all of the guests they bring on to the podcast to stay motivated and learn even more. Keep it up guys.\u201d So gzreta we appreciate you.
And for all of our rookies that are listening, if you haven\u2019t yet left us an honest rating and review, please do. The more reviews we get, the more folks we can reach. The more folks we can reach, the more folks we can help, which is what we love doing here at the podcast.
Ash, I think it\u2019s so funny reading the reviews because it\u2019s like we have the amazing comments like that, and then if you go on certain parts of the internet, on social, it\u2019s just the exact opposite where people hate on the podcast for all these other reasons. So it\u2019s crazy that you can listen to the same exact show that gets such polarizing-ly different opinions.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Which you tell me all the time, we can\u2019t please everyone. So Tony, what\u2019s new with you? How is it in sunny California? We got snow today and it\u2019s cold.<\/p>\n
Tony:
It\u2019s snowed out there. That\u2019s crazy. No, it\u2019s, I don\u2019t know, it\u2019s like 70 and perfect out here today, but no, it\u2019s cool. We\u2019re still working on our West Virginia deal, so we\u2019re excited for that one. Feels like we\u2019re getting close to raising all the funds we need for that.
Initially we were looking to raise about a million bucks, but we\u2019ve since made some changes to what we\u2019re doing at the property, so we\u2019re looking to raise about 1.3 now. So it\u2019ll be cool once we get that project done.
I\u2019m just super excited to really see this one across the finish line and the finished product. Once we\u2019re done with it, I am like, \u201cOh my God, I can\u2019t wait to share it with all the rookies because it\u2019s going to be so cool.\u201d<\/p>\n
Ashley:
I\u2019ve been getting your emails and today I was at Lowe\u2019s with Daryl and I got one, and I\u2019m just like, \u201cOkay, read this.\u201d And then I\u2019m kind of explaining to him as to how you are structuring the deal, and it\u2019s just so intriguing to me, so intriguing.
And so I recommend any of you, even if you just want to learn stuff from Tony, you don\u2019t even want to buy into the campground or invest or private money or anything. You have no interest in that. Just like to learn from him and what he is doing. Go, what is it? alphageekcapital.com, and you can just sign up to your newsletters.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Yeah. They can head over to Alpha Geek.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
It\u2019s so cool.<\/p>\n
Tony:
I\u2019ll break down just for those that are listening, how we\u2019re structuring this deal and how it\u2019s different from the last commercial deal we did, so.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
I was going to allude for them to sign up to your email list so that they have to go to that, but now go ahead, no one has to sign up now.<\/p>\n
Tony:
They got to sign up. I can go over free. So when you buy commercial real estate, you have a couple options. You can syndicate the deal, which is what a lot of people do. They raise the majority of the money, then they bring in debt, I\u2019m sorry, they bring in debt to cover the majority of the purchase, and they use raised syndicated funds to kind of cover the remaining balance.
But because the deal size is pretty small on this one, our total project costs or total everything is 1.3 million, we realized it didn\u2019t quite make sense to syndicate such a small deal. So instead of doing a syndication, we said, \u201cLet\u2019s just raise debt. We\u2019ll just do the whole thing with debt.\u201d And I have a few friends that bought apartment complexes in the last year and it was around the same price and they used all debt to cover it.
Now, we\u2019ve used debt to fund all of our flips over the last year and a half, so we already know how to raise private money from folks, but this is just at a much larger scale just for one big deal. So essentially what we\u2019re doing with all of our investors is we\u2019re offering them 15% annual interest.
So if someone gives us for every $100 to get $15 back and it\u2019s a three-year note, we\u2019re not paying any interest over the first 12 months, and then starting in year two, we\u2019ll pay interest quarterly, and then we\u2019ll pay everyone off at the end of 36 months with all of their accrued interest plus their principle.
So it\u2019s a pretty strong interest rate at 15%, right? I mean, that\u2019s a pretty good long-term rental deal, better than what you\u2019re probably going to get in the stock market from those people. So we felt it was kind of a win-win. And the benefit for us is that once you refinance and we cash all of those people out, now we own 100% of the deal.
So that\u2019s our goal with this one is, pay out some really good interest for the first three years, our cash will be pretty tight over that timeframe because we\u2019re paying 15% interest, but assuming we can refinance into something below 10%, it\u2019ll be a good deal for us to long-term.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
I feel like we need to do a Rookie Reply on this soon, talking about the pros and cons of doing it this way compared to raising money through a syndication for a deal like this. Okay. So let\u2019s, producers are you listening? Let\u2019s put a bookmark on that for a Rookie Reply episode.
But today, Tony and I are still fangirling over today\u2019s episode guest. So we have Ava Yuergens and she is going to blow your guys\u2019 mind. She is 17 years old, has two investment properties. She\u2019s going to tell you exactly how she did it. Of course, not all of you are going to have this option, but there\u2019s still going to be a large majority of you that do as to getting started this way.
But hopefully it can also kind of get the wheel spinning that for those of you that are 15, 16, 17, 18, give you ideas as to ways you can get started so young or somebody you know. I think giving them some of the books she mentions when they\u2019re in high school, when they\u2019re in college to get them turned on to this way of living.
But she is just a very impressive, amazing girl and she talks about, she has a long-term rental and a short-term rental. She\u2019ll talk about how she uses software and the things she uses to manage her short-term rental. Also, very knowledgeable in finding her markets as to where she\u2019s investing too. So she\u2019ll kind of talk about the three P\u2019s there.
Ava, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. Can you start off with telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got started in real estate?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yes, of course. Well, hi, my name\u2019s Ava Yuergens. I started a real estate investing company with my now fiance, Ben, when we were 15 years old and now we\u2019re 17 with 900K in residential real estate.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
First, let\u2019s clap. That\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Yeah.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Oh, thank you.<\/p>\n
Tony:
When I was 15 years old, I was working at Finish Line part-time, making $5 and 75 cents an hour, something crazy like that. So that\u2019s super, super impressive, Ava.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Thank you so much.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
So let\u2019s start from the very beginning. What even intrigued your interest about real estate investing?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah, of course. So it\u2019s kind of a funny story. So I was actually sitting in history class, my sophomore year of high school and my teacher started presenting about a guy named Andrew Carnegie, and if you guys don\u2019t know who Andrew Carnegie is, he invented the company, the Carnegie Steel Corporation, and basically it was a cool rags to riches story and he was basically the Elon Musk or the Jeff Bezos of his time.
And just hearing about him and what he did with so little, just really inspired me and I kind of knew after that I really want to be great, I want to do something great with my life. So after class I searched up something so dumb on Google Books to be successful or something like that. And of course, the first one that popped up can guess it was Rich Dad Poor Dad.
So I forced my sister after school that day to drive me to Target because I was 15, I didn\u2019t have my license and she did. And then the day I actually, we got home from Target, and as I opened the door, my dad is at the top of the stairs. He\u2019s never home from work at 3:00 PM when we get home from school.
But he\u2019s at the top of the stairs with a mask, and it turned out everyone in my family except me had COVID, but I had to quarantine anyway with them, which is so dumb. You have to quarantine with people who had COVID, but it was a close contact, so I couldn\u2019t go to school.
But essentially that quarantine gave me the time to actually read the book. And then after I read that book, I found BiggerPockets, I just went down the whole rabbit hole, read all the books, started listening to all the podcasts, started attending the local REIA, and it was all kind of history from there.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
I had to read a Dale Carnegie book when I was in high school, is How to Win Friends and Influence People, and I did not appreciate that book at all, until I think I was in college when I read it again.
One of my friends, actually my first business partner was like, \u201cYou need to read this again.\u201d And then that\u2019s where I saw the huge value of, only I had been as smart as you when I was in high school and really appreciated the value of that book.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Ava, do your parents preach entrepreneurship and wealth building? Because so many kids have heard about Andrew Carnegie in high school, but most of them are probably not going to go out and buy a Rich Dad Poor Dad afterwards. So I guess what was the home life that maybe made you think a little bit differently than most sophomores in high school?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So my mom is a teacher, so this definitely, she was never on an entrepreneurship or business route, but my dad had a sales job for most of my life, but then when I was around 10, he ended up starting his own company. And so I got to see entrepreneurship and business with my dad.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Was this kind of the same path for your boyfriend, now fiance or were you the one that kind of convinced him as to getting into this entrepreneurial spirit?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So Ben, he has had a lawn care company since he was 13. So he was always kind of just into having his own business and making his own money because we\u2019ve both, we\u2019ve never had jobs before. I\u2019m unemployable by anyone, aside myself. That\u2019s what I always say.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
As long as you know that about yourself and found it out early before you spent so many years trying different jobs and realizing you hate it. So you\u2019re lucky that way.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Definitely.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Well, that\u2019s amazing that he was 13 and started that business. So what was the first conversation when you guys decided you\u2019re going to invest together? How did that happen?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Mm-hmm. So basically I obviously was the one to read Rich Dad Poor Dad, and I was like, \u201cBen, just read it. Just read it.\u201d But Ben\u2019s not going to read a book. So basically I ended up just having to sit down with him and explain everything. And looking back on it, it might have been more forceful of me, but Ben loves the idea of building wealth and even if it is boring, he is willing to do it.
So I wouldn\u2019t say there was any convincing involved, but I was definitely more of the one, \u201cOkay.\u201d If you ever read the book, Traction, \u201cOkay, we\u2019re going to have our Sunday meetings. We\u2019re going to do this, this, this, this week. I need you to cold call these people this week.\u201d So it was always, I was more of the boss, but he was willing to do any of the work that I needed him to help me with.<\/p>\n
Tony:
So Ava, I\u2019m so curious. So you guys had this conversation about, \u201cLet\u2019s become real estate investors.\u201d But you\u2019re pretty young, most people at your age can\u2019t really afford to buy real estate. So after you guys made the decision to say, \u201cHey, this is what we want to do.\u201d What was the next step to actually getting that first deal and eventually get into almost a million dollars worth of real estate?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So I can step-by-step explain the first deal because I feel like it best showcases how we did it. So obviously, the first thing we needed to do was just figure out the financing. So luckily because my dad\u2019s a business owner, he gets to make his own money in a way, and it\u2019s allowed him to save up a lot of cash on the side.
And so he agreed, him and my mom agreed to partner with me and Ben, which I\u2019m so grateful for because it\u2019s a lot if, you have to put a lot of trust in your 15-year-old kid to handle that amount of money. But basically what we did is the partnership, we ended up using for our first deal was a 50\/50 partnership. And essentially I\u2019ll explain later how we did it, but if you think about it like this, you have the down payment, the closing costs, and then the repair costs. If you add that all together, that\u2019s all the costs you have to pay up front.
Me and my parents essentially split that in half, and me and Ben paid half and my parents also paid the other half. So now for our first year, we\u2019ll split the profits 50\/50, but I\u2019ll get into how we kind of made that money. But before we even found the first deal, we figured out the financing. So we agreed on that partnership and we got that in writing. Then me and Ben decided to go the off market route when finding a deal.
So we did the cold calling, we did the direct mail. Before school, I would get up at 3:15 every morning and just write out direct mail for direct mail, because I was so frugal at the time. I didn\u2019t want to spend money on any direct mailing apps so I just wrote it out, and then after school, me and Ben would pretty much just cold call for hours on end, until we couldn\u2019t do it any longer.
But after three months of hard work and dedication, we actually got a deal under contract. And over those three months we were able to get our half of the down payment, closing cost, repair cost, by something called couch flipping, which you guys might be familiar with. It\u2019s a great side hustle.
But essentially you find a couch on Facebook marketplace, OfferUp Craigslist, you buy it, you clean it up, and then you resell it for a higher price and you\u2019re able to make 200 to $500 an hour with this method, but of course it\u2019s not in your own time, which kind of sucks. But over time, over those three months, we were able to raise our amount of the down payment, closed cost and repair costs.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
That is crazy. That\u2019s amazing. But you are right about it, that\u2019s very time-consuming. When you find a couch, you got to go and clean it and take care of it.
Were you guys doing all of this yourself, going and picking up the couches for sale, cleaning them yourselves, and then were you delivering them to people too once they bought it or were they coming to get them? But you still had to meet the people, I\u2019m assuming?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. So basically some people would have us deliver and if we did deliver, we would just have them pay a fee, because everyone has a pickup truck or is going to rent a U-Haul, and then some people just took it themselves. But if you\u2019re delivering it, you got to charge extra. Okay?Don\u2019t miss out on the extra cash.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Well, I don\u2019t want to turn this into a couch flipping episode, but I am just curious, so how were you sourcing these couches and then what kind of work did you have to do to get them ready for the end buyer, and how much would you typically make on one couch flip?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Mm-hmm. So I\u2019d say the average cost or the average profit we\u2019d make on a couch flip was around 250. And that would take anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour because we just mainly stick to our area. So we didn\u2019t have to drive that far or anything.
But how I mentioned how me and Ben, we both agreed to do this, but what I had him do was he mainly did the couch flips and I mainly did all the real estate stuff and that\u2019s just, it was easier for both of us because both of our parts were essential, but we both didn\u2019t enjoy each other\u2019s part that much.<\/p>\n
Tony:
So you said 30 minutes, so does that mean you guys were literally buying a couch on at two o\u2019clock and then reselling to someone else at 2:30? The same exact couch with no changes to it?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So we have sold many couches without cleaning them because sometimes I say we clean them, just to sound like a better person, but sometimes it wasn\u2019t necessarily, it\u2019s sold in 30 minutes, it was just the time that we were actually working was probably 30 minutes added up altogether.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Got it, got it. That\u2019s so cool. We\u2019ve been talking about this for a while as having a side hustle episode where we talk about all the different ways, people can side hustle their way towards their down payment.
So Ava, you and Ben used couch flipping to fund your 50% of the down payment in the closing cost for that first real estate deal.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. And it\u2019s super effective because we in the end, were able to raise our half, which was 20K in three months.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Wow.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Which is great, especially if you\u2019re a teen. I mean, it\u2019s just such a great way to raise money.<\/p>\n
Tony:
We got to stop there for a second. Because there are so many adults who can\u2019t save $20,000 in three months, and the fact that the two of you as teenagers were able to do that proves that there is no excuse as to why someone who has a car, a job and the means shouldn\u2019t be able to replicate that same thing. So I am so incredibly happy that you guys shared that story.
Ava, so I also want to talk about the cold calling piece because you said you were up before school, cold calling and after school doing all this work. So cold calling can be a very nerve wracking thing for a lot of people. You\u2019re calling on strangers that have no idea who you are. So how did you, I guess, learn the ropes of cold calling and what did your script kind of look like as you started to make those phone calls?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So how I crafted my script was I just went on YouTube and just watched a bunch of people\u2019s videos explaining what they say, why they say it. And then with that I just took a bunch of pieces of theirs and kind of just made my own. So that\u2019s how I made the script.
But of course with cold calling, I was so nervous in the beginning and honestly still today. If I ever jump on a Mojo Dialer session to go cold call people, I\u2019m still shaking for the first hour. But just imagine 15-year-old on the phone like, \u201cHey, can I buy your house?\u201d Yeah. So it was definitely a nerve-wracking experience and I definitely would say cold calling is not fun to anyone unless you\u2019re really strange.
But it was more just mentally, that was probably one of the hardest things I did, especially because you\u2019re getting rejected thousands of times before you actually get your first deal. Some people say terrible things and I understand you\u2019re kind of probably bugging them, but you still don\u2019t need to say bad things.
But I\u2019d say it was just probably, it kind of made me grow up in a sense, real estate in general made me grow up at a teenager and it made me more of an adult. And I\u2019d say cold calling was especially one of those things because you have to feel out the caller, who you\u2019re calling on the other end of the line, how they\u2019re feeling, what you should say. If it\u2019s a sensitive, if it\u2019s a probate call, you got to be really careful on how you say anything. So cold calling is definitely a skill that takes probably years to master.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Okay. So let\u2019s go into that journey you\u2019ve decided with your boyfriend, you\u2019re going to buy a property you\u2019ve saved up for the down payment. Walk me through that decision to purchase a property together, and then what did that kind of look like to find the property and how did you decide on what strategy you were going to do too?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So originally we were going to wait till we\u2019re 18 just because we\u2019re not old enough to get a loan. And we weren\u2019t really exploring co-signing or anything quite yet, but we both have severe ADHD and we\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, we got to start now. I can\u2019t wait.\u201d
So that\u2019s initially just how we made the decision and just our goal in general, like any other couple is we want to build wealth together and we\u2019re just so passionate about it and we love doing things young. I mean, just doing business young and doing cool things young. So honestly, that decision, it wasn\u2019t hard.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Was there anybody that doubted you guys, like, \u201cYou guys can\u2019t do this, you\u2019re too young.\u201d Or, \u201cDon\u2019t buy a house together.\u201d<\/p>\n
Ava:
Literally everybody.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
How did you overcome that?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Honestly, it wasn\u2019t necessarily overcoming it. It was kind of just blocking those people out. And it was surprising by how many, even family members didn\u2019t even believe in us and obviously our friends thought we were crazy.
And as I said earlier, it\u2019s not necessarily overcoming it, it\u2019s just blocking those people out because at the end of the day, you know yourself the best and if you know you can do something, you can do it and you shouldn\u2019t let other people\u2019s opinions affect you.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Ava, I\u2019m curious because one of the biggest challenges for new real estate investors is the lack of community, where it feels like you\u2019re kind of on this island by yourself. And I wonder, did you and Ben feel that same feeling of being alone? And if so, did you guys take any steps to try and find that community of other real estate investors that you could connect with?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Definitely just being so young, it wasn\u2019t something we could talk to our friends about ever or even our families because none of our families have invested in real estate. But I definitely say we found a lot of people at our local REIA, which was nice, but again, you only meet with them once a month.
So you have to go out of your way to ask people like, \u201cHey, do you want to meet up for lunch this weekend?\u201d Or, \u201cYou want to go check out this property together?\u201d So yes, it\u2019s super easy to feel alone, but you yourself have to go out and find that community because it\u2019s always there in every single market.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Okay. So you guys are still going forward, you\u2019re blocking everybody out. How are you going to buy this house when your not 18, you can\u2019t get a loan, I\u2019m assuming you probably don\u2019t have any kind of credit history at all.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Yeah. So how did you guys do that?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Well, actually we again, decided to go with our parents and get a loan with them and then also split the down payment, closing cost, repair cost. So I guess that\u2019s how we went about that.
And as actually for the credit, something that anyone can do for their kids or if you\u2019re a teenager listening to this, I actually do have a credit score even though I\u2019m not 18 yet. It\u2019s because I became an authorized user on my parents\u2019 credit card, and essentially when you become an authorized user on someone\u2019s credit card, you get their credit score.
And so you have to make sure you go with someone who has good credit, but you don\u2019t even have to, you have a credit card, but you don\u2019t have to spend anything on that credit card.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
So with this partnership with, is it both of your guys\u2019 parents then?<\/p>\n
Ava:
No, it\u2019s just mine.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Just yours. Okay. So it\u2019s the four of you. And then how did you work that out on the mortgage? Are your parents just on the mortgage? Did you guys do any kind of written documentation? What does the kind of partnership look like? Who\u2019s responsible for what?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. So basically we had them put their names on the mortgage, just because obviously you have to be 18 to have your name on a mortgage. But we actually did transfer our property into an LLC, which I do want to say the due-on-sale clause is a thing, so that\u2019s not me advising you to do that but we took the risk, we\u2019re good so far.
So my parents are members on the LLC because again, you have to be 18 to actually have your name on that. But on my birthday I\u2019m getting a call from my attorney, it\u2019s scheduled to have my name switched on the LLC and me and Ben will become the members.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Can you explain that a little more, the due-on-sale clause and what that process looks like of buying the property in a personal name, getting the mortgage and the personal name, and then going and switching it into the LLC and just what are some of the pros and cons of doing that?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So we always kind of wanted to buy in an LLC, but obviously the terms are more favorable that you can get on the loan if you buy it in someone\u2019s personal name. So we did is we had, my mom and dad get the loan and so it was in their names, but then we decided to create the LLCs with our attorney after. And the attorneys can handle the whole switching the name process and they can handle that, but the risk is of course the due-on-sale clause.
And I\u2019ve heard maybe one or two times where it actually has gotten called on, but they were able to resolve it with an attorney, but again, that\u2019s not me advising you to do it. I\u2019m sure there\u2019s plenty of horror stories to do with that.
But essentially what the due-on-sale clause is, if you switch it over and the bank finds out, they can say, \u201cOh, all of your loan is due. In the next 30 days, you have to pay it over.\u201d So essentially if you get caught, you might have to pay the rest of the loan in full, right then and there.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Yeah. I think Ashley and I both, a lot of people have heard the due-on-sale clause. I personally have never met anyone that\u2019s actually had that triggered, and I\u2019ve known quite a few folks that have moved tattle over to LLCs. But like you said, Ava, it definitely is a concern. Might I just mention that you handle that appropriately.
Ava, I want to dig a little bit more into how you are splitting up the duties and responsibilities on that first deal. So obviously your parents helped with the mortgage application and 50% of the capital that was needed.
What about actually finding the deal? Sounds like you guys found it through your cold calling, but everything that comes after actually owning the property, how are you guys splitting up those duties and responsibilities?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Just because my parents have obviously closed a house before, they were kind of right at our side teaching us and showing us, every time they had to sign a document, my dad would call me downstairs and be like, \u201cOkay, Ava, watch me sign this document and you\u2019d explain what it is.\u201d So it\u2019s honestly super helpful just having someone who\u2019s actually bought a house before, and so he was a huge helper on showing me how to sign everything and just all the process that comes with it.
But when it came to pretty much everything else, calling the insurance company, making sure that\u2019s set up and figuring out property management and stuff, that was all me and Ben, because obviously they haven\u2019t invested in real estate before, but I\u2019ve read all the books, so that fell all on us.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Yeah, I love that. And people ask all the time, \u201cTony, Ashley, what\u2019s the right way to set up a real estate partnership?\u201d And our answer is almost always the same, where there is no right way or wrong way as long as both sides are happy.
And it sounds like for your partnership with your parents, it was more so they were bringing the capital in a little bit of the guidance, but yet you and Ben were doing all of the legwork. And even if that\u2019s not a parent and a child relationship, but just two separate investors, that could still very much be a win-win situation. And there are countless partnerships that have that exact same structure.
So many properties in my own portfolio, I have partners that brought all the capital and carried the mortgage, but we found the deal, we set it up, we managed it long-term, we split the profits down the middle and everybody\u2019s happy because all they had to do was sign some docs and wire some cash and we did everything else for them. So it definitely can be a win-win situation when you set it up the right way.<\/p>\n
Ava:
For sure.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
One question I do have is, what would be your advice if somebody is in your position and they want to pitch to their parents this investing idea? How should they present it to their parents? Maybe they\u2019re unsure that their parents would actually say yes.
What\u2019s some advice you can give that maybe you notice when you talked to your parents about this that they were eager to go ahead and help you with this?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. So of course, again, I\u2019m so thankful because I have super supportive parents, but essentially what me and Ben did was we created a slide deck basically explaining start to finish, how we would find the property and then after the fact what work we would do and what would we need them to do and how the numbers would kind of work.
But it really closed the deal once we actually found the property and showed them the numbers, that\u2019s when they fully agreed, to work with us because obviously at the end of the day, the deal then the money they\u2019re going to make is the most important thing.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
And the fact that you wrote it down and you showed them too, and it wasn\u2019t just like, \u201cI know what I\u2019m doing, I know I can do this, I\u2019m just talking.\u201d I think really showing them the numbers and breaking it down is really great.<\/p>\n
Tony:
And Ash, I think that\u2019s a valuable lesson for all of our rookies. If you\u2019re looking at raising capital from someone else, obviously if it\u2019s someone you have a really good relationship with, maybe you don\u2019t need to do this.
But if it\u2019s someone that\u2019s maybe a newer connection, giving them something tangible to read, digest and understand, really helps them grasp both the value that you\u2019re going to bring and the value that they\u2019ll get out of partnering with you on that specific deal. And Ash, I mean you\u2019ve talked about yours before, but you did a presentation for your first partnership too, right?<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Yeah. So I used to make these binders. I\u2019ve physically print everything out, put them into a binder when for private money or for partners and it\u2019d be my deal analysis, BiggerPockets, calculator reports, everything. And I\u2019d give them a binder and me, a binder and we\u2019d sit there over coffee and go through it all. And now you can just email stuff, but I just thought it was more efficient to hand these old guys a copy of the binder to go through.
But also thinking about that too is who is the person that you\u2019re delivering that pitch, that speech to too? What\u2019s easier for them to understand and comprehend a physical copy of something, actually seeing it and visualizing it. Maybe it is them just hearing it and you talking about it, or maybe it is sending them a Google Drive folder with all of the information in it and them sitting down at their own time going over it.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Ava, I\u2019m curious, have you used that same pitch deck for any other opportunities or was it just that one time with your parents?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So that specific pitch deck I only used with my parents, but when I did acquire my short-term rental, I pitched to a bunch of different investors with a new slide deck I made.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Interesting. Let\u2019s talk about that a little bit. So you guys obviously do well with this first deal and then you stumbled upon the second property. So tell us about the second deal. How\u2019d you find it? Was this another off market deal? And walk through how you kind of put the financing together to close on this one.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. So actually for this one, I\u2019d love to go step-by-step on how I acquired it and the whole process that it\u2019s applicable to anyone. So teenager or not, you can do this no matter what your age is or how much money you have.
So I guess going into the second deal, since it was new asset class as a short-term rental, I needed to educate myself. And whenever I do go into a new asset class, I always find the best book that everyone recommends about it. So in this case it was Short-Term Rental, Long-Term Wealth by Avery Carl, which is a BiggerPockets book, I swear I\u2019m not biased. It was so good.
She talks about how to acquire the property and then after the management side of it, and then I also went on to YouTube for education. And you have to be careful on social media because a lot of the people who are posting about real estate in general, specifically tend to, it\u2019s sometimes they\u2019re more about the money than actually offering people value. So you have to really seek out the people who are providing value over money. And there\u2019s two YouTube channels that I love.
So Tony, I\u2019m going to pretend you\u2019re not here, but I love Tony and Sara\u2019s YouTube channel, The Real Estate Robinsons. I swear this sounds so biased, but it\u2019s not. But I love their videos and I think my favorite video was the messaging template video you did for the automatic, that was so helpful. And again, that video\u2019s not going to get millions of views, but you still posted it because it was valuable, which I really appreciate.
And then also Robuilt, so Robert Abasolo who is the co-host on the BiggerPockets podcast. So that\u2019s step one, educating yourself. And then step two, is what I love to do is make a step-by-step to-do list of exactly what I need to do to acquire this property.
So for short-term rental, I just wrote that all out checklist form, and then I just write a date next to each step. What date do I want to find an agent? What date do I want to choose what market I\u2019m in? So then you can be like, \u201cOkay, in 60 days I should have a property by then.\u201d And then the next thing I did was figure out financing. So this is where the pitch deck kind of comes in.
I made my slide deck and we actually had, me and Ben had a business class and you had to make up a business. So we did the Airbnb thing and that\u2019s where we actually originally made the slide deck. But it was super intense because we had a business competition and 60 kids were in this class and we had to present our presentation. And if you won, you didn\u2019t have to do any more assignments the rest of the year. And we won, with our amazing slide deck. So that was awesome.
So we use that pitch deck on people just at the REIA because there\u2019s a bunch of investors there. And it was kind of mortifying because it\u2019s easier to pitch to your parents than to these investors. But after about 20 people, we finally got someone to say yes, but it wasn\u2019t humiliating. It was just really scary, especially getting rejected in person, because all of these were in person.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Ava, I just want to pause here for a second. So you said that you pitched it to 20 people. Was this you standing on stage, pitching to an audience of 20 people or were you one by one pitching to 20 different people who said no?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So for the one I did in class, we actually had 20 business owners come in and we pitched to them. And then when I did it just for my own personal Airbnb reasons, I pitched it to 20 people separately.<\/p>\n
Tony:
So I want to talk about how you initiated that conversation to pitch it to those people separately. These were people you had met through the REIA I\u2019m assuming, but how did you actually set up the call to say, \u201cHey, I want to pitch you on this next deal that I\u2019m working on\u201d?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. So first I just went around the REIA, I asked around and wrote down who all the investors were, got their business cards or information. And then individually I would just reach out, set up a meeting, reach out, set up a meeting, because honestly, I didn\u2019t want to set up more meetings than I had to.
So I do one by one, which is kind of tedious, but after a couple months I finally got someone to say yes. So this wasn\u2019t something that happened in a week. It took a while.<\/p>\n
Tony:
So one theme that I\u2019m noticing, Ava, is that you have a very high level of determination and you do well with rejection. That first deal that you and Ben got from cold calling, how long did you have to cold call before that first deal came through?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. It was five hours every day for three months.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Five hours every day for three months. You talk one-on-one with 20 different investors and hear no, but yet you keep going to find that 21st. There is so much value in that little nugget of the episode alone because there are so many investors or aspiring investors who after that first, not even the first rejection, just the thought of that first rejection, they\u2019ll stop or they won\u2019t move forward or they won\u2019t take that action because they\u2019re just afraid of that first rejection.
You got rejected for three months straight, for 20 conversations straight, but you didn\u2019t let that stop you. So I\u2019m just so incredibly happy that you did move forward because that is such a big lesson for our rookie audience.<\/p>\n
Ava:
And something interesting about that, is I\u2019ve started other businesses other than real estate and getting rejected so much in real estate and then moving to marketing and other businesses, real estate is honestly, I think it\u2019s the best business to start because you have to market like crazy to get a deal. But if you take that same amount of marketing you did into a different business, a lot of the times it is so much easier.
I did not realize how much you had to, I wouldn\u2019t say harder because that sounds discouraging, but real estate, you have to try really, really hard to get that deal because a deal is life changing.
I mean in other businesses, if you market and you get a client it\u2019s not necessarily life changing. That\u2019s why it should be hard, but just applying it to other businesses, it\u2019s crazy how real estate has still helped me so much in business in general.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
That\u2019s really cool to hear, and that\u2019s interesting as to that progression of taking things that you\u2019ve learned from one business and easily implementing them to another business instead of like, \u201cOkay, this is a whole different industry, I\u2019ve got to start from scratch again.\u201d
And really taking those tools and I think that\u2019s what a lot of our listeners have to realize are things that you\u2019re doing in your nine-to-five W2 job that you may hate now. There\u2019s got to be at least one thing you can take and implement it to give you that leg up, that advantage in a real estate business.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Also, to mention the financing we did for the short-term rental, this is what I pitched in the slide deck is, it\u2019s kind of similar to what I did before. Avery Carl mentioned this in her book, but it was essentially taking the down payment, the repair costs, the closing costs, adding that big chunk of money together and splitting it.
So that\u2019s kind of the same thing we did. But we\u2019re the investors, they would get the loan, so the money partner. They would get the loan and they would pay all that money up front, including our half. And then us, we are the sweat equity partners. We would do all the work to all the management, get the things set up, and then we\u2019d take any profit that we made from the Airbnb and start paying down our half.
And we got this in last May, so we\u2019re almost done paying off our half with all the profit, but once our half is paid off, we\u2019ll revert back to splitting. We\u2019ll revert back to splitting the cash flow 50\/50. But the reason I say anyone can do this is because we don\u2019t have any money in this deal and we use partners so it didn\u2019t really matter our age.
So that\u2019s why anyone can do this method just with that partnership. I\u2019m not saying this, it was a very hard deal for define for that reason to make this partnership work, but it is possible and it does show that anyone really can do this.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Yeah. That is so incredible, Ava. There\u2019s so many investors who don\u2019t necessarily have all the capital they need to grow their portfolio, but you\u2019ve just displayed in an incredible way, that as long as you focus on building your network and providing value to other people, there\u2019s a good chance you can find someone that has the capital to fund your deals.
And the structure you use, it\u2019s another great way, right? It\u2019s like the first deal you did with your parents. It was just kind of you put up half, they put up half, you guys split everything half. This deal, this other partner brought everything to the table, but you worked out a way to repay them with the cash flow.
There\u2019s so many creative ways you can structure a partnership to still make it a win-win. Just out of curiosity, Ava, where\u2019s that short-term rental at? What city in? What city is it in?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. So that actually kind of leads to my next step, which is choosing your market. So I know you have one there, but I have one in the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee. And the reason we chose that market is there\u2019s so many reasons.
First off, the policies were great. The economy relies on short-term rentals there to make money and then also the price, so it\u2019s gotten really competitive, we\u2019ll just say that. But we were able to get a deal that made the numbers work.
So you got to make sure the average daily rate along with the medium home price and the occupancy rate, you got to make sure that works. So using sites like AirDNA for example, that\u2019s kind of where we found the numbers. And then, I\u2019m trying to think, policy, price, what is the third P? Popularity.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Popularity.<\/p>\n
Ava:
That\u2019s it. There you go.
So there\u2019s Smoky Mountains, number one most visited national park in the US. So obviously it was a great place because a lot of people are going there and national parks, they will never die. People will always love them unless the world all catches on fire, so they\u2019re safe. I say they\u2019re a safer area, it\u2019s completely safe.
But then the next step was kind of just determining the property criteria, so how many beds and baths we wanted and then for the Smoky\u2019s, you want a cabin, obviously you wouldn\u2019t want a modern house there, that just wouldn\u2019t make sense. So the cabin, number of rooms, just and also we wanted one with a hot tub already because a lot of people like hot tubs there, the guests that come. And then after that we needed to figure out how are we going to find this deal.
So we ended up using an agent and going on market. And when you do go for an agent, I recommend finding someone who has a deal on that market. The agent has a deal, and no short-term rentals in that market because it\u2019s always nice to have someone helping you and confirming like, \u201cOh, this would make a great Airbnb.\u201d
And then the next step is honestly just finding the deal. And basically I think, trying to think, my goal was just to find a deal before I turned 17 and we got it under contract three days before I turned 17. Sorry, I did it, but it took probably two months of waking up early every day, checking out the MLS, analyzing a bunch of deals before we found the one where the numbers were right.
But after that, after you closed, it\u2019s basically just setting up the property, getting it automated with all the apps and softwares. But that\u2019s pretty much start to finish, how we did it.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
I just want to say, and Tony and I have a separate little chat thing that we do, as to who\u2019s going next or whatever we did or what should we talk about and we\u2019re in there just hyping you up. It\u2019s, she is explaining, analyzing a market better than some of our grown adult guests. Come on here. This is amazing. So would you be interested in talking deep into the numbers on one of the properties?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah. The one I probably know best is my first deal, the long-term rental.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Okay. Let\u2019s go into that. I\u2019m going to spit some rapid fire questions at you and then you can kind of go more into the story of how that worked. So what was the purchase price?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So the purchase price was $175,000 even.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Okay. And what market was it in?<\/p>\n
Ava:
It is in the Greater Milwaukee area.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
And this was you did a mortgage with your parents on it?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Correct.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
And what kind of mortgage was it? Was it the 30-year fix, conventional?<\/p>\n
Ava:
It was an investment, I believe it was an investment property loan. It was 25% down and the interest rate was four. Looking back, we probably could have gotten better just because when we bought it was at the time where interest rates were like three. But my dad was honest, he said it was an investment property, so that\u2019s kind of loan we got.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Yeah. Well that\u2019s not a bad thing at all. And then is it fixed for 30 years?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Correct. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Yep. Okay. And then how did you find this deal?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So again, B found this cold calling. I will give credit to Ben. It was his cold call that got the deal. He\u2019ll never let me forget it.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
There you go, Ben. She gave you credit. Okay. And then what was the rehab needed on this property?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So actually this is super interesting. So the property is over a hundred years old. And while this deal was off market, we still worked with an agent to close it just to make sure we\u2019re doing everything right.
And when we got the inspection report back, the agent said, \u201cThis is the best inspection report I\u2019ve ever seen.\u201d And the house is a hundred years old, it needed $200 in repairs. It was crazy.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Okay. So you want to kind of go into a little bit. I know you\u2019ve touched on it throughout the episode, but was there anything that kind of stood out to you about this property?
Anything that failed or that you just weren\u2019t aware of? Something that went wrong? Huge success. I mean, I think only having $200 in repairs for the property was a great success. And then also kind of wrap it up with what your cash flow is.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah, of course, so I guess we can just go right into the numbers. So it was already a rental previously, so we had inherited tenants and essentially since it was 25% down, our mortgage was a little bit lower, but the final numbers look like this. So it\u2019s a duplex. So there\u2019s two units and our final rent, our rental income is around 2100. Our mortgage payments plus expenses, insurance taxes is around 1500.
We do not have to pay any of the utilities just because our market that we\u2019re in, it\u2019s just law. You don\u2019t have to do that. You have the tenants pay it. So we have about $600 a month in cash flow and then we split that in half with my parents. So we each get 300. And something about this deal is, that\u2019s kind of funny I guess, is me and Ben decided to take on the property management role of the property. And just at the end of the day, being 16 and being a landlord, no one takes you seriously. So that lasted about two weeks.
So we were inheriting tenants and we had one encounter with them because their lease was ending, so we had to renew it. And so I just remember that day getting ready, I put on a suit, put on makeup to myself look older, I\u2019m literally with the suit. I wore sneakers, so I don\u2019t even know what I was trying to get at here.
But I remember getting into the property, my hands were shaking, clammy too, I was sweating. But we sat at their kitchen table and I\u2019m going through this rental agreement that we drafted up with our attorney and getting to the expectations and the rules part, and I\u2019m getting through these so quick because I just want to get this over with.
And I started saying, \u201cOh, there\u2019s no smoking in the property.\u201d And then as I say that, I literally, my ice dart to the ashtray on the table and it was the most awkward experience for my life. I was staring at the tenants, staring at the ashtray and it went silent. Let\u2019s just say they did not sign the lease. They\u2019re not our tenants. We never continued that with them.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
So what happened? Did they move out the next day?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Okay. So their lease expired in two weeks. So we basically, I just didn\u2019t know what to do. So I just kept reading the rents for agreement. And then originally we were going to have them sign it there, but I just left it at their house. I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah.\u201d And let\u2019s just say they ended up moving out.
But never again, we hired out property management and I do not regret it. Honestly, it\u2019s been so seamless because we interviewed a bunch of people, but it was mortifying.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
So did you include a property management fee when you ran your initial numbers on it?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah, I did because we were going to pay ourselves to do the property management. So yeah, we did.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
That is so smart. And that\u2019s what I wanted to hit at, is that even if you\u2019re going to self-manage to start, is to run the, put that number into it in case you ever decide to outsource management.
And I love that even more is when you are paying yourself to do it because you had partners, your parents, and you guys are doing the self-managing, not your parents, and it\u2019s not fair you\u2019re doing that for free while you\u2019re splitting the cash flow evenly.
And any of my business partners, we did the same thing too. When I was managing, I would take an extra pay, out a cut for doing the property managing on the property if they weren\u2019t doing anything. So smart. And then what about the short-term rental?<\/p>\n
Ava:
For management purposes?<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Yeah.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Okay. Yeah, so just with all the technology and the Airbnb softwares, we personally decided to manage that and we use a ton of different softwares and literally, I probably work on my Airbnb because I only have one, it\u2019s maybe 10 minutes a week.
We have automatic messaging, saying the guests giving them the code and the directions of the property. And we also just have automatic things with our cleaners and it\u2019s just, it\u2019s so nice. You just have to put in the work to do the research to figure all that stuff out. But once you do, I recommend you go that route because you don\u2019t want to be paying 25, 30% in short-term rental management fees because it really adds up.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Yeah. I think it\u2019s interesting, right? I know a lot of people who have property managers for their long-term rentals, yet they self-manage their short-term rentals.
And it\u2019s weird because you think that it would be the other way where people would be more willing to self-manage their long-term because it\u2019s one tenant, one person. But the short-term rentals, I think there is an element because there is so much automation and so many things you can do to where it is easier to self-manage those in a lot of ways.<\/p>\n
Ava:
It is.<\/p>\n
Tony:
That\u2019s awesome. And sorry, I know you mentioned this, but can you just restate it one more time? What\u2019s the cash flow that you guys are getting now after the management fees on the long-term rental?<\/p>\n
Ava:
On the long-term rental, we\u2019re getting about $600 and then we split that 50\/50, which 300 each.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Not bad. Not bad at all. Cool.
Well, anything else from you, Ash on this deal or should we hit the exam next?<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Yeah. I think let\u2019s go to the exam. So we have three questions for you today, Ava.
The first one is, what is the one actionable thing rookie should do after listening to this episode?<\/p>\n
Ava:
I would say, first, you need to determine an asset class you want to do, and then you need to educate yourself on it and make that step-by-step checklist. Because once you have that checklist and it\u2019s so much, because it seems so crazy when there\u2019s a whole bunch of things, you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I have to do this, I have to do this. I\u2019ve talked to insurance people.\u201d But if you just lay it out on a checklist step-by-step in front of you, it cancels out all the noise because all you have to focus on is that next step. And if you have due dates by it, it\u2019s great for setting goals.
So I recommend just figuring out what asset class you want to do and just choose one, whether it\u2019s multifamily Airbnbs, arbitrage, anything, and then make that checklist with a step-by-step, actionable steps that you can take.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Love that answer. All right.
Question number two, actually before I ask this question, so did you graduate from high school already, Ava?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So technically I should be a senior, but I graduated my junior year, not because I\u2019m extra smart, but just because I took the credits I needed to on time.<\/p>\n
Tony:
Got it. All right.
So my next question then is what\u2019s one tool, software app or system that you use in your business?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So the one software I choose would be Guesty, it\u2019s basically an Airbnb, it\u2019s a system that covers pretty much everything for your Airbnb. It has automatic messaging on there. You can connect your schlage lock to make new codes for each guest on the door lock.
It\u2019s just an all-in-one platform where you can see all your bookings, because let\u2019s say you have a listing, you can post on Airbnb, but you can also post it on Vrbo and all the other booking platforms. And it will basically give you an overview of all those platforms together in one.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Okay. And our last question is where do you plan on being in five years?<\/p>\n
Ava:
So I, right now have another business that has to do with helping people build their personal brands with short-term content on social media. So right now I\u2019ve been super honed in on that business to get capital for bigger multifamily deals, because after exploring a bunch of the asset classes, I realized I don\u2019t like flipping. My heart lies in multifamily and it will forever ever.
So I\u2019ve been basically just trying to hoard money to buy those properties myself this time because I love the idea of using investors, but it\u2019s a lot less stressful when it\u2019s just your own money because I never ever want to lose someone else\u2019s money.
So basically I\u2019ve been focusing on just building up a lot of cash for that. But then also at that point, I think my biggest goal in life is to be buying businesses, whether they\u2019re real estate businesses or not. At the end of the day, cash flow is cash flow and I think buying businesses is a really great way to do that.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Hey, awesome.<\/p>\n
Tony:
All right, cool. So before we wrap things up, I want to give a shout to this week\u2019s Rookie Rockstar. This week\u2019s Rockstar is a name you might know. So if you\u2019re active in the Real Estate Rookie Facebook group, you 100% know this name. He\u2019s also a previous guest. I always forget his episode number, but you can look him up.
But this week\u2019s Rockstar is Kevin Christensen and Kevin says, \u201cThis is what it\u2019s all about. Ricky\u2019s my 19-year-old daughter and her 19-year-old husband just closing their first investment property. At 19 my wife and I were horrible with money. My wife and I didn\u2019t buy our first investment until we were 36. I cannot imagine where my kids will be at 36, armed with the knowledge that they\u2019ve gained over the last few years.\u201d And that he\u2019s super proud of them.
But he finished it off by saying, \u201cNever have I more felt the old adage, feed a man once and he\u2019ll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he\u2019ll eat forever.\u201d All right, so Christian, Kevin Christensen. We love that man. And congrats to your wife and your son-in-law for that amazing first real estate deal at 19.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
And Kevin\u2019s episode was episode 51, if anyone wants to go back and take a look at it.
Well, Ava, thank you so much for coming on to the episode with us. We really appreciate it. Can you let everyone know where they can reach out to you and maybe ask you a couple questions?<\/p>\n
Ava:
Yeah, of course. So on every social media I\u2019m at @avayuergens, that\u2019s A-V-A, and then the last name is Y-U-E-R-G-E-N-S, and that\u2019s Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, everything.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. You definitely brought a lot of value to this episode and I hope everyone learned a lot, but talk about a huge inspiration and that\u2019s what I love so much about being a host on this podcast that after these recordings I get so motivated and inspired. So thank you so much for sharing your story with us.<\/p>\n
Ava:
Thanks for having me, guys.<\/p>\n
Ashley:
I\u2019m Ashley, @wealthfromrentals and he\u2019s Tony, @tonyjrobinson on Instagram, and we will be back on Saturday for a Rookie Reply. (singing)<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n