\n<\/p>\n
Real estate investing<\/strong><\/a> is changing<\/strong>. Builders aren\u2019t building what buyers and renters want, insurance companies are pulling out of top investing states<\/strong>, and property threats<\/strong> are growing increasingly common. This may sound like doom and gloom to you, but in reality, it\u2019s keeping your competition out of the game<\/strong>, and if you use the advice on today\u2019s show, you could build wealth while most cower in fear<\/strong>.<\/p>\n Seeing Greene <\/strong>is back again as David is on to give his time-tested wisdom to every real estate investor on the planet. But he\u2019s got backup. Rob hangs around on this episode, and special guest Dana Bull<\/strong><\/a>, the \u201cknow when to stop<\/strong>\u201d investor, is here to drop some knowledge bombs. We take viewer questions like whether you should buy one pricey property or a handful of smaller rentals<\/strong>, what to do when a property you\u2019re buying has an illegal ADU (accessory dwelling unit<\/strong>), why insurance companies are leaving states like California, Florida, and Texas, and what\u2019s the BEST property type to buy in today\u2019s market<\/strong>?<\/p>\n Want to ask David a question? If so, <\/strong>submit your question here<\/strong><\/a> so David can answer it on the next episode of Seeing Greene. Hop on the BiggerPockets forums<\/strong><\/a> and ask other investors their take, or follow David on Instagram<\/strong><\/a> to see when he\u2019s going live so you can hop on a live Q&A and get your question answered on the spot!<\/p>\n David: Dana: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: Dana: Rob: Dana: David: Dana: Rob: Dana: David: Dana: Rob: Dana: Rob: Dana: Rob: Dana: Rob: Dana: David: Rob: Dana: David: Dana: Rob: Dana: David: Dana: Rob: Dana: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Dana: Rob: David: Dana: David: Rob: David: Dana: Rob: Dana: David: Rob: David: Dana: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: Rob: Dana: David: Rob: Dana: David: Dana: David: Rob: David: Dana: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Dana: David: Rob: Dana: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Rob: David: Rob: Dana: David: Rob: David: Dana: Rob: David: Rob: David: Rob: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Dana: David: Rob: David: Dana: David: Rob: Dana: Rob: David: Rob: Dana: David: \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Help us reach new listeners on iTunes by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found here<\/a>. Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n Interested in learning more about today\u2019s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email <\/em>[email\u00a0protected]<\/span><\/em><\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n Note By BiggerPockets:<\/b> These are opinions written by the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of BiggerPockets.<\/p>\n
This is the BiggerPockets podcast show, 813.<\/p>\n
I was a recent college grad from UMass, and I had actually bought a little bit of real estate. I had a condo, I had a two family, but I was sort of just going through the motions. Had hired a real estate broker and he brought me into his office, and it was, I call it the corruption. And it was very much this matrix moment where he said, \u201cYou can take the red pill and see how far the rabbit hole goes, or you can take the blue pill and just kind of get out of this real estate thing and just keep going down the typical path.\u201d<\/p>\n
What\u2019s going on everyone? This is David Greene, your host of the BiggerPockets real estate podcast, here today with the Seeing Greene episode, and I brought back up. I\u2019m joined today by my cohost, Rob Abasolo, as you can see, if you\u2019re looking on YouTube, looking handsome and ever. As well as Dana Bull, who is featured on BiggerPockets podcast episode 187. We brought her back to give us a little bit of air support on the questions that you, our audience, has answered, and today\u2019s show does not disappoint.
We\u2019re about to get into questions that you asked and provide our answers that everybody can benefit from. Dana is a real estate agent, an investor. She basically has a strategy that was like, how can I get out of real estate investing, instead of how big can I get? Very interesting philosophy, and the answers that she provides are based on that philosophy. Rob, what are some things that you think investors should keep an eye out for in today\u2019s episode?<\/p>\n
Is going to be a great episode. I can already tell you that. We\u2019re going to talk about so many cool things from how big should your first investment be? Should you go all in? Should you maybe be a little bit conservative with your first investment? We\u2019re going to talk about the logistics of adding to your property. We\u2019re going to talk about seller financing. Today, we\u2019re going to cover some pretty big topics that I know will change perspectives at home.<\/p>\n
Yeah. So, keep an eye out for that because we have a very good conversation about things to look for in different markets if you\u2019re into long distance real estate investing, and things you might not have considered that can help you make that decision. And before we bring in Dana, today\u2019s quick tip is brought to you by Batman. Don\u2019t forget to make insurance part of your due diligence. For many years, insurance was such a small percentage of the overall monthly payment that it was sort of just something you tacked on, it wasn\u2019t a big deal.
Across the country, insurance companies are going out of business. They\u2019re fleeing certain states, and it\u2019s getting much more expensive to find it. Rob and I recently had this problem with our Scottsdale property where my company was able to find us a policy, but it was much more expensive than what we were expecting. So, don\u2019t consider insurance to be a small expense like it used to be. In some places, it\u2019s doubling, tripling, or quadrupling. So, make sure you underwrite appropriately. Anything to add there, Rob?<\/p>\n
It hurts whenever your insurance rate doubles, triples, or quadruples. Can confirm.<\/p>\n
Yeah, because other things don\u2019t. Property taxes don\u2019t. If you have a fixed rate mortgage, that doesn\u2019t double or triple, but insurance goes up in leaps and bounds. So, keep an eye on that, folks. All right, let\u2019s bring in Dana and get to your questions.
Dana and Rob, thank you so much for joining me today. Quick recap of Dana. Her story is featured on BiggerPockets podcast episode 187. She thinks it\u2019s a myth about how having a strong why is important.<\/p>\n
So Dana, tell us why is having an end goal more important than having a why when it comes to real estate investing?<\/p>\n
Well, I think one of the biggest unknowns for people is knowing when to stop. Real estate can be addicting, it can be fun, riding that roller coaster of emotions. And I just found that it was easier for me to come up with a plan, execute on that plan, and then give myself permission to be done and to move on to other things in life. So, I feel like you don\u2019t always need to have a why, but you do need to have a will to be able to execute.<\/p>\n
I love it. We recently had a guest, Chad Carson, on the air, and he gave a very similar thing, right? Having an end goal, having a reason. Not just blindly stating it, right? Having a purpose, but not just having a super wide net cast out there, but actually having intention behind it. So, a lot of reminiscent things. And as I understand it, your original end goal was to hit $450,000 in gross rental income, and you hit that within five years. First of all, congratulations. That\u2019s absolutely insane. Why did you pick that goal and how did you get there?<\/p>\n
Okay. So, let me tell you a little bit about how it all began. I was a recent college grad from UMass, and I had actually bought a little bit of real estate. I had a condo, I had a two family, but I was sort of just going through the motions. And I had hired a real estate broker who I met on Zillow. Zillow was this new platform at the time. And he brought me into his office and it was, I call it the corruption, and it was very much this matrix moment where he said, \u201cYou can take the red pill and see how far the rabbit hole goes, or you can take the blue pill and just kind of get out of this real estate thing and just keep going down the typical path.\u201d And I was so curious. I didn\u2019t have a why, but I was impressionable, and I frankly had nothing better to do at the time.
So, the next step was, my boyfriend and I, we were in Florida. After we had this conversation, we were all fired up. We were walking down the beach and we were just talking to each other, asking each other, \u201cShould we go for it?\u201d And we decided, yeah, let\u2019s do it. So, we were out getting drinks at the restaurant bar, and we chicken scratched this plan. And we pulled the number, the original number was $400,000 gross, and we just pulled that out of thin air. And the rationale was, if we have a business that\u2019s bringing in $400,000, we should be good. We should be set. We should be able to make that work. At some point, it actually creeped up to 450, but the original goal was $400,000.<\/p>\n
You don\u2019t want to set your goal\u2019s too low.<\/p>\n
Right.<\/p>\n
Let\u2019s add another $50,000.<\/p>\n
Yeah, why not? Why not?<\/p>\n
Why shortchange ourselves?<\/p>\n
So, from there, we actually reverse engineered into it. The average rent at the time our market was $1,600 a month for a two bed, one bath. So now, I\u2019m just taking $400,000, dividing it by $1,600 a month divided by 12 months in a year. So I need 21 units. 21. I can do that, right? And so then, I became obsessed with 21 units. It\u2019s like, eat sleep, 21 units. The next step was, we came home from the trip in Florida and I created a business plan. And when I start talking about business plans, people, their eyes glaze over. But I think it is so helpful, even if you don\u2019t feel like you\u2019re super business savvy, my business plans are always just one page, and broke it down into where I\u2019m at with real estate right now, the direction I need to go in, and then what are the goals, what are the next steps, what are my marching orders? And that\u2019s how it started.<\/p>\n
Well, okay, so obviously big goal here of 400 to $450,000. At what point, because obviously that\u2019s gross, right?<\/p>\n
Yes.<\/p>\n
Was there any moment where it sort of dawned on you that the actual profit of that $450,000 is different? Or was it just sort of big scary goal, doesn\u2019t really matter, I just want to put something out there and I\u2019ll figure it out as I go?<\/p>\n
Yeah, so that was actually the point of narrowing in on gross instead of net, because once I realized if I tied this to net, I would get so into the weeds with it. And for me, this is just all long-term. The idea is, I will be hopefully sitting pretty in 10, 20, 30 years. And that\u2019s where my mindset was at the time, so that\u2019s why it became more practical for me to narrow in on gross instead of net.<\/p>\n
Okay, so you were kind of thinking of it as, obviously you want the portfolio to make money, but even if it were breaking even theoretically, once it\u2019s all paid off in 20 to 30 years, you\u2019re effectively making $450,000 profit every single year.<\/p>\n
Right.<\/p>\n
Got it. Okay.<\/p>\n
Plus the benefits, the other benefits of investing, the write-offs. Boston, the Boston area is a huge appreciation play. So, with all my buildings, there needs to be cashflow. That\u2019s a must. But what I\u2019m really leaning into is appreciation. I just decided I\u2019m not going to fight that. That\u2019s the market where I live, that\u2019s the market I\u2019m knowledgeable in, so I want to lean into it as much as possible.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I think that\u2019s the way that the savvy investors are adapting right now. First off, we want to highlight, appreciation is not the same as speculation. Those have become synonymous, and I think a lot of people get nervous whenever appreciation is mentioned because they assume that means hoping that the prices go up and you have no plan in place. There\u2019s no cashflow, there\u2019s no built-in equity, the loan to value is crazy. You\u2019re just hoping that prices go up. That\u2019s not what we\u2019re talking about.
There actually is a mathematical approach to investing in real estate that will capitalize on how appreciation plays out. So, I think that\u2019s wise. But even more wise is, why go against the grain? If your market is a cashflow market, you\u2019re going to invest for cashflow. If your market is an appreciation market, you\u2019re going to invest for appreciation. If there\u2019s creative opportunities, you\u2019re going to use that. So I think that\u2019s wise that you just said, \u201cHey, why fight the flow just because everybody else talks about it a certain way? This is what my market\u2019s good at, so I\u2019ll take advantage of it.\u201d<\/p>\n
So, what are some other mistakes you see people making today?<\/p>\n
So, a mistake that I made is compromising a bit on location. The location, location, location, we hear it all the time, but it\u2019s hard to grasp. What does that really mean? And I think it\u2019s all about understanding the context. So, if I were to buy a multifamily in some of the nicest neighborhoods of Boston, I\u2019d be looking at $2 million entry price point, right? I can\u2019t afford that. So, instead, I\u2019m going to step out of that market, but I still want to purchase a property that is sort of premier for the location where I\u2019m buying.
So, my strategy was built on buying properties in A and B locations in various towns. And I made the mistake of buying two properties in B minus locations. And the caliber is staggering. They\u2019re my problem properties, just nonstop headaches. I don\u2019t really understand what the correlation is, but it\u2019s real. And now that I have 10 years worth of data, I don\u2019t regret what I did, I don\u2019t regret those purchases, I\u2019m not going to sell them. But if I were to go for a second round, I would be very specific with my buy box, and I would only focus on the A location.<\/p>\n
Yeah, that is a mistake a lot of people make. When you look backwards 20 years and you say, \u201cHey, what properties performed the best?\u201d Not just appreciation, but cashflow too. Rents go up way more in the best locations than they do in the shorter ones. And for some reason, we\u2019ve gotten into what I think is an unhealthy habit of analyzing properties based on right now, year one, as soon as you buy it. We know that real estate is an organism that grows at different rates in different areas and different opportunities, but yet, we still only analyze a deal as tomorrow if I bought it, what would my cashflow be?
But we\u2019re not going to own it for one day. We\u2019re going to own it for a long period of time. So when you buy in these grade A areas, they can look like a poor investment when you compare it to some turnkey thing in the Midwest that has a 16% cash on cash return, and then 30 years later, it says a 16.5% cash on cash return, and those grade A areas have gone up 10 times in rent and you\u2019re crushing it. So, I appreciate you sharing your wisdom on that.<\/p>\n
Yeah. The other thing that really blew my mind, and I learned this further into, about five years into my career, and I actually learned it through this property where I\u2019m sitting right now for this recording. I\u2019m sitting inside of a small cottage that was built in the late 1800s. It was a fishing shanty. So, this property, based on the assessment is, the overall real estate is worth about $500,000. The actual structure is $35,000. So, I just bought a minivan for $55,000, okay? I own a car that is more expensive than the structure.
All the value in this piece of real estate is tied up in the land. Just, it never really clicked until this slapped me in the face with owning this home. So now, when I\u2019m working with clients, especially those who want to buy single family homes as investments, I really point this out and want them to be aware of the land value.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I mean, I think this is significant for a lot of reasons. I mean, it\u2019s something that can be a plus or a minus, I\u2019d say. But one reason to really think through that, I guess, to sum up what you\u2019re saying, the real estate, the entire property, house, land, $500,000, the land is very valuable. The actual structure is just, it\u2019s basically, I don\u2019t want to say a tear down, but is insignificant compared to the land value, right? And that comes into play especially for cost segregations, depreciation, because you can only depreciate the actual improvements on a property. And so, if you go and you buy a property where the improvement is only worth 5% of the entire purchase price or the cost basis, then you actually won\u2019t be able to depreciate very much on that property. Is that right?<\/p>\n
Yeah, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n
Well, we are going to take advantage of your insight, Dana, reading some questions from different listeners who have written into Seeing Greene, because they\u2019ve got some problems and they want solutions. So, let\u2019s dive into that. Question number one, this comes from Gabby in Los Angeles. So, as I start planning for my first investment property, I\u2019ve been thinking about this question. Is it a better strategy to put all of my cashflow to get one best property I can afford or diversify into a few lower price properties?
So, this is the typical all my eggs in one basket or several smaller eggs over several smaller baskets. I wonder if it\u2019s better for me to put 20% down in a $1.2 million-ish property in LA, or get three, $400K-ish property somewhere else? Or also get a lower price one first, then a more expensive one when I have some experience? What are some factors I should consider to make the best decision here?
Dana, what do you think so far?<\/p>\n
Oh my gosh, she took the words right out of my mouth with the putting all your eggs in one basket. I love this question and it comes up all the time in markets where, pricing markets. So, I probably tell this listener what they want to hear. These are both great options. I have two pieces of advice, two kind of overarching considerations. The first is, what do you want to buy? Because they both work, and I really sincerely mean this. I\u2019m a advocate for buying properties that you are excited about, and I know most investors, they want to take the emotion out of it. And I just refuse. That\u2019s a hill I will die on.
The reason being is that I truly feel the way to make significant wealth in real estate is to just hold onto it and to do whatever you need to do in order to hold onto it. So, if you end up buying a property that you\u2019re not excited about when problems arise, you\u2019re going to be very tempted to sell. When I was younger, my mom taught me something, which has nothing to do with real estate but also everything to do with real estate. When we go back to school shopping, she would make me try on all the clothes, and then she would evaluate, \u201cDo these pants fit? Okay, they\u2019re not too big, they\u2019re not too small, they fit.\u201d But then, the next question she would ask me is, \u201cDo you love them?\u201d And then she\u2019d go a little bit deeper and she\u2019d say, \u201cHow do they make you feel?\u201d
And I\u2019ve learned to apply that to everything that I purchase, especially real estate. So, this new investor is talking about putting 20% down on a $1.2 million property? That\u2019s probably everything she has. So, I would encourage her to really think about what type of property is she going to be excited about. The other thing that I think this person needs, no matter which direction they take, is a jumpstart plan. So, some way to make this work. And Rob, you have a ton of experience here, but the first thing that I think about is probably a 12-month lease is not going to work on this $1.2 million place. It\u2019s probably going to be negative cashflow. So, could she do a shorter term rental, a midterm rental, get those numbers up for the first few years? Because she\u2019s going to need that to become confident and to also get the momentum going.<\/p>\n
Yeah, 100%. My LA property, I mean, it kind of happened accidentally, but it was a short-term rental. Actually, at one point, I had a short-term rental, midterm rental and long-term rental, all in the same property. But it was really nice to start off strong income-wise with the short-term rental, test out that property, see how I do, and then it did well. But then, when regulation hit, I converted it to a midterm rental and actually found that I really liked that strategy even more, and it was a great hybrid. And having done all three, I could experiment on that property and see, I could choose my own adventure basically. But I think it is really nice to have those contingency plans and see what are the different ways that you can make revenue from that same property.<\/p>\n
Right.<\/p>\n
So Rob, what\u2019s your thoughts? Should somebody put all their eggs into one basket in one property or should they diversify over smaller ones?<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t think anyone should put all their eggs into their first property. I think they should take a swing, but I don\u2019t think they should swing for the fences, right? I think, real estate is a skill that you get better at, and I would rather, personally, scale accordingly. Learn how to do real estate before you get really, really crazy with it, right? So hit a couple base hits, load up the bases, and then go for the grand slam, right? That\u2019s how I did it. Usually, if someone were approaching me with this exact same question, I\u2019d honestly probably tell them to go somewhere in the six to $800,000 range. Don\u2019t go so small that you actually can\u2019t cashflow it, and then you find that it wasn\u2019t worth it.
Similar to what you\u2019re saying, Dana, we want to make sure that this property is something that you like. And if you\u2019re only making $100 on it, I don\u2019t really think it\u2019s going to, I think a lot of people, especially for their first investment will say, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t know if this is worth my time.\u201d So, I would definitely find that sweet spot in the middle. I would like to see this person sort of break it up into two purchases, and give them a bigger one maybe in that six to $800,000 range. Learn the ropes, learn how to do real estate, give themselves enough capital to get into that next property, if they really find that real estate is what they want to do.
What about you, Dave?<\/p>\n
I think, my advice to Gabby here is capital preservation. We only have so much time, we only have so much energy. We understand that, but it\u2019s easy to forget how quickly you run out of capital, especially when you\u2019re putting 20% down on every deal. So, the worst thing that can happen is you buy 3, 4, 5 bad deals. You go through the, \u201cOh, turnkey sounds easy, I\u2019ll do that.\u201d Works out bad. \u201cOh, this cheap area, I\u2019ll go invest in there.\u201d Turns out terrible, you don\u2019t want to do it anymore. You finally figure out the right location, the right asset class, the right deal, how to find it, and you run out of money.
So as you\u2019re learning, what I advise people to do is to try to keep as much of their capital as they can in the first couple of deals. No huge renovation or rehab projects where you seek hundreds of thousands of dollars into the deal. Don\u2019t put 20 or 25% down just to try to buy cashflow because you\u2019re obsessed with it. Try to do it with primary residence loan, 3.5% down, 5% down. Learn the basics, but keep as much of your capital as you can. Once you\u2019ve done what both Dana and Rob said, you\u2019re a little bit more comfortable with how this rhythm of investing works, now you have the money to really ramp up what you\u2019re doing and you don\u2019t run out of cash. So, start slow. Once you\u2019ve got it down, then go big. Sound good to you guys?<\/p>\n
Yeah. My favorite part about this is that we\u2019re all right. You know what I mean? All of these things are perfectly great answers. It definitely comes down to preference, and some people are just go-getters, and they\u2019re like, \u201cYou know what? I\u2019m ready to go. Let\u2019s do this thing. I\u2019m going to go big or go home.\u201d And then some people are like, \u201cYeah, I sleep better at night knowing I have money in the bank, but I can take the small risk and see how it goes.\u201d That\u2019s totally fine too.<\/p>\n
All right. Our next question comes from Gregg Peterson, Gregg with two Gs, in Cape Coral, Florida. I was just in Fort Lauderdale, Florida not that long ago, and let tell you, you can cut the humidity with a knife. I\u2019m planning to buy my first small multifamily within 90 to 100 days. I\u2019m looking in Cape Coral, Florida. The one thing I hear constantly is to force equity build on or additions. Sounds like he\u2019s been listening to me. I ran into a lot of listings that show potential, but how much of a headache is there for trying to legally add on or buy a property that has a non-legal addition already? This is good. There\u2019s nothing that influencers like talking about more than legal issues, especially ones that could get people in trouble. So Dana, we brought you in to absorb all the liability. Rob and I aren\u2019t going to say anything. Go.<\/p>\n
Rob, you want to take this one?<\/p>\n
Sure. Sure, sure. I\u2019ll talk about it. Listen, I think that new construction and adding onto a property is an absolutely amazing way to build equity. I actually think that it is the best way to build equity. You can go and you can buy a property and you can rehab it. There\u2019s a lot of risks, really, I mean, that goes into that because you don\u2019t really know what\u2019s behind the walls, right? But when you\u2019re talking about new construction, there are no surprises. It\u2019s not like you\u2019re going to open up a wall and be like, \u201cOh my gosh, there\u2019s mold here.\u201d It all usually follows a pretty good plan and it just gives you so much equity once you\u2019re done, because you\u2019re basically building it at your cost, right?
Now, with that said, building is not something that is a cashflow play right now. It is an entire process, and if you\u2019re talking about, let\u2019s say, building an ADU, if you\u2019re talking about building a new construction, if you\u2019re talking about adding onto your property, could very, very easily be a 12 to 18 month process. And if you\u2019re talking about a non-legal addition that you have to convert, I don\u2019t even, I would never even tell someone to go that route because I don\u2019t know enough about it, other than that it will probably be a very painful experience.
So with all that said, I think that if you have the time to wait and you don\u2019t need the cashflow right now, and 12 to 18 months is not a big deal, then you should do it, because I think it\u2019s a really great way to supercharge your cashflow on a property.<\/p>\n
What\u2019s your thoughts on buying something that already has non-permitted additions in the property? Because that\u2019s almost everything. Very few, in my experience as an agent, I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s the same for you, Dana, you hardly ever find ADUs or additions to houses where the people went and got permits because that\u2019s just asking for your property taxes to get raised. So most people add onto their home but they don\u2019t get it permitted. Is that a danger if you\u2019re buying the property?<\/p>\n
This comes up all the time. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Well, we\u2019ll start with Rob and then I\u2019ll get Dana\u2019s take on it.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m iffy on it. I think it depends on how easy it would, because I think it\u2019s going to be county by county, and then I\u2019ve also had lenders that have kicked back that kind of stuff in the appraisal. Or, the one thing that really affected me not too long ago, maybe about a year ago, was that they valued the addition or the kind of other structure significantly less than the actual square footage of the home, so the house didn\u2019t appraise and I fell out of escrow a week before. So, I\u2019ve run into situations like that. So, usually, I\u2019m more in the camp of start fresh and do it. But again, I think that\u2019s going to be up to the individual investor. What about y\u2019all?<\/p>\n
Dana?<\/p>\n
I agree to tread lightly. Where I see this is in the small multifamily space where you might have a two family property that\u2019s zoned as a two family, building department has it as a two family, but it\u2019s actively being used as a three family. And I always tell people, \u201cLook, we have to analyze this and evaluate it as a two family, but this could be huge if we could get it approved.\u201d And sometimes, there\u2019s a pretty good chance. So, in my market, we can\u2019t bank on it, but a lot of times it comes down to parking. So, does the property have adequate parking? Because in the Boston area, we don\u2019t have enough housing, we just don\u2019t have enough housing. So, it might not be a quick thing, but it is possible if you push on it. You just need to accept the risk that it may not pan out the way you hope.<\/p>\n
Yeah, like do you have the time and the budget for the upside and for the downside, I think is ultimately where I would land on that too.<\/p>\n
And also to your point, with financing, that is a huge snag. Usually they want the stove, I don\u2019t know what it is with the stove, but you got to pull the stove out in order for the property to still go through financing.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I can tell you that\u2019s why. It\u2019s because one of the regulations that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have is that it can\u2019t have more than one kitchen unless it\u2019s zoned for multifamily. So, if it\u2019s zoned for three units, you can have three kitchens. If it\u2019s zoned for one, but the house is split into three pieces, it\u2019s not a kitchen if it doesn\u2019t have a stove. It can have a microwave, countertops, you can have as many fridges in your house as you want. They\u2019re never going to come and say, \u201cWho told you that you could have a second fridge?\u201d Some garages have four fridges or freezers full of elk meat, if you\u2019re a Joe Rogan fan.
But the stove is the big thing. So, you see, frequently, people take the stove out of the house. Now the appraiser will say, \u201cThis qualifies for financing because it\u2019s not breaking a zoning regulation.\u201d Then they just go put the stove right back in it. Nobody really ever talks about this, I just said it on the podcast. But this frequently happens, like stove removal. If someone can have a company that\u2019s like, \u201cWe take your stove and we store it for seven days and bring it right back,\u201d they\u2019d have a really good business.<\/p>\n
Well, it\u2019s really with the appraiser, right?<\/p>\n
Yeah, it\u2019s the appraiser, and only for financing. That\u2019s the other thing, because the person buying the house can\u2019t get the loan if the appraiser says no because it\u2019s the zoning laws. But people confuse that with the city is going to get all mad at you. Some cities don\u2019t care at all. They could not care less that you have an extra kitchenette in your house or you\u2019re renting it out. I will say this though, it really depends on what city you\u2019re in. I\u2019ve seen clients and I\u2019ve had houses that no one takes a second look. When I got into short-term rental investing, this whole thing got turned over on its head. I have several properties in Florida that I bought and I did not add the units to them. I bought them with the units in them. And when I applied for the short-term rental permit, the city was angry about short-term rental investors.
They\u2019re getting all kinds of angry phone calls from the neighbors who don\u2019t want a short-term rental in their neighborhood. They came in and said, \u201cI need to tear down the ADUs that are a part of the house.\u201d One of them is literally a duplex on the same lot as the main house and they tried to say, \u201cYou have to tear down your duplex.\u201d I didn\u2019t build this duplex. It\u2019s been there forever. All the other houses on the street also have ADUs. And I said, \u201cWhy do I have to do this, but all the other homes that you can clearly see driving down this alley, they have the same thing.\u201d And the city told us, \u201cWell, we don\u2019t actually do anything until someone applies for a short-term rental permit. And when they do, we go in there and we make them tear them down. So, even though we know they have those ADUs, we\u2019re not going to do anything to enforce it unless they apply for a short-term rental permit.\u201d
So, it can be tricky, when in the past it wasn\u2019t tricky. They weren\u2019t looking to target people, but there\u2019s certain scenarios that will bring it up as a red flag. Have you seen that, Dana, in your business as well?<\/p>\n
Yeah. So, the issue is the liability with an unpermitted unit, and then you can\u2019t get a certificate of occupancy when you go and register it because most people are not registering their rental units. But eventually, you might get called in to do that. The other sticky point is, it becomes more difficult when the property is occupied. So now, how are you pulling out a stove, getting all this figured out while somebody\u2019s living there, and then it\u2019s triggering for the tenants. And they realize, \u201cOh, this place isn\u2019t even legal? Does it have egresses?\u201d All this kind of stuff. So, I would say, it\u2019s pretty hard in my area to push it through just because it\u2019s been there. It would need to go through all of the official, it would need to go through the official process for somebody, I think, to feel comfortable renting this moving forward.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s a great big mess, isn\u2019t it? We don\u2019t have enough housing, so that makes housing super expensive, which sucks for tenants because we have to keep raising rents because we have to keep paying more for the houses. Then they make more regulations, so it\u2019s harder to build more houses, so investors buy and then we try to add housing so that we can keep rents lower by increasing supply. Then the city comes in and charges us more, or makes us take away the existing housing that was already there, making rents even more expensive, all in name of protecting tenants. It is the most ridiculous, backwards, circular logic, and it\u2019s happening in big cities near you, everywhere.<\/p>\n
Brought to you by your city. Yeah. This has all been, I\u2019ve been trying not to shed a tear because I did have to pull the stove out for a cash-out refi many years ago for an appraiser while I had a tenant in there, who luckily was great and it was super easy to do. But, yeah.<\/p>\n
I love how you say you shed a tear because you pulled one stove out, while I\u2019m literally having to destroy a duplex and turn it into a garage. It\u2019s like, oh yeah, David had to-<\/p>\n
How insensitive of me, I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n
\u2026 David\u2019s arm had to be amputated. I can relate. I popped a pimple once and it was, it was so painful.<\/p>\n
I threw out my back, man. I\u2019ve never recovered.<\/p>\n
I had to take a stove out for two days.<\/p>\n
I had to go rent a dolly,<\/p>\n
I had to rent a dolly. You threw your back out.<\/p>\n
You understand how much dolly rentals are? They\u2019re $25.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s because you do everything yourself. This is exactly why. Rob\u2019s like, \u201cOh yeah, I had to fly to Tennessee and rent a dolly and take a U-Haul to move the stove because I couldn\u2019t trust anyone else to do that right.\u201d That\u2019s funny. All right. Our next question here comes from James in Seattle. Do you think this is James Dainard who also is a James from Seattle? Is he sneaking into Seeing Greene?<\/p>\n
He\u2019s asking for\u2026 He\u2019s too nervous to text us for advice because he doesn\u2019t want to seem green.<\/p>\n
He doesn\u2019t want to seem green, that\u2019s exactly right. I don\u2019t want to admit I don\u2019t know this. All right. From Jimmy Neutron himself. As a brand newbie considering markets outside of my hometown Seattle due to cost and competition, how do you decide to factor in future environmental impact on your investment? Okay, this isn\u2019t James Dainard. He\u2019s lost me right there. Florida and Texas look like great opportunities, but they\u2019re under threat of hurricane and flooding, and insurance companies are going bankrupt or fleeing. Side note, that is actually a good point. We should talk about that later. Phoenix looks inviting, but they are out of drinking water. Insurance companies are refusing to insure California and Colorado due to wildfires, and Florida due to hurricane risk. BiggerPockets Ally Elle just wrote an article about this.
Do you try to keep your exit strategy short on markets like this, say, a five-year term, or avoid them entirely? Thanks for all the inspiring and sobering content. Listening to BiggerPockets has catapulted my confidence. Okay, this is a good question. Let me go sum up all the things he mentioned because I read a lot there for you, and then we\u2019ll go to you, Dana. He\u2019s trying to invest outside of Seattle because there\u2019s so much competition, which is driving prices high, but he\u2019s considered about the negative aspects like defensive investing here.
So, Florida and Texas would be good, but there\u2019s threats of hurricanes and flooding. Insurance companies are leaving some of the top markets, which is true, like Florida and Texas. Phoenix is running out of drinking water, California and Colorado have issues with wildfires, and Florida has constant hurricanes. All true as well as all kinds of lizards everywhere, and alligators. It\u2019s amazing how many people are moving to Florida with as wild as that place is. What are your thoughts, Dana, on when you\u2019re picking a market, how much you should consider some of these environmental hazards?<\/p>\n
Oh, you should definitely consider it. This is coming from somebody who buys old properties. Knob-and-tube doesn\u2019t scare me. Nothing scares me.<\/p>\n
Can you explain what knob-and-tube is for those of us that aren\u2019t agents who have seen this destroy?<\/p>\n
Sure. So, knob-and-tube is old wiring. It\u2019s risky.<\/p>\n
As far as electrical systems are concerned, it\u2019s like an abacus.<\/p>\n
Yeah.<\/p>\n
Instead of a calculator.<\/p>\n
And I see it in properties all the time. That doesn\u2019t scare me. We can fix that, we can fix property problems. Environmental threats, I think, are ultimately the biggest threat to your asset, to your real estate. I\u2019ve been waving a red flag on this for a while with insurance. It\u2019s definitely hitting me here. A couple months ago, I actually had to go out and procure all new policies because some of my policies were being dropped. Where I bump into this is with flooding, because I work in markets, coastal communities, and the FEMA flood maps are your friend.
You can Google FEMA flood map, search by address. It\u2019s going to pull you to a website where you can type in an address and see how close you are to a flood zone. Pull up the GIS mapping, whether you\u2019re in a flood zone, and this is a conversation I\u2019m regularly having with people. It\u2019s going to be a problem before it actually is a problem. And I won\u2019t do it. I will not buy in a flood zone. The last four investments I\u2019ve made are properties that are all perched up on hills, and I\u2019m very specific about that because I want to, again, I\u2019m a long-term investor. So if I am partnering with these properties for the next 30 years, I don\u2019t want them to be underwater.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s likely that, yeah, likely, if it\u2019s in a flood zone, in 30 years from now, it will have faced at least a flood, in theory.<\/p>\n
Yeah. So, that\u2019s how I feel. I know it\u2019s doom and gloom and it does feel like, well, where can you invest where we don\u2019t have this environmental threat? I guess I would position it, if it is a current known threat, why wouldn\u2019t you avoid it? Why would you buy in a flood zone for an investment property? If you\u2019re buying in a flood zone but it\u2019s your primary residence, you\u2019re going to get to wake up every day in your $3 million oceanfront home and enjoy the views. Okay, we can justify that potentially. But if this is really for investment purposes, maybe just try and find a property up on a cliff.<\/p>\n
What about mudslides? What about rainstorms?<\/p>\n
Yeah, I was going to say, that sounds like its own risk there too.<\/p>\n
On a cliff and back from the cliff, I don\u2019t know where you\u2019re going to find this property.<\/p>\n
What about lightning strikes? Have you considered that?<\/p>\n
So, that\u2019s where it\u2019s, it\u2019s just, you have to assess your own risk tolerance, because yeah, we could pick apart so many markets. Yeah, Florida, we have hurricanes, we flooding. But flood, if it\u2019s in a flood zone, it\u2019s in a flood zone. It\u2019s going to flood.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s a pretty clear one, right? Absolutely. You know what my dream day would look like?<\/p>\n
Hanging out with me?<\/p>\n
Hanging out with you, but I get to just look at the negative side of everything you say. So you\u2019re like, \u201cHey David, do you want to get Chipotle?\u201d And like, \u201cOh, they charge extra for guac. It\u2019s really not fair. They never give me enough cheese.\u201d And you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, what about Chinese food?\u201d \u201cOh, I don\u2019t like the MSG. If people just came to me and said, \u201cHey David, you should invest in real estate,\u201d and I just got to come up with all the reasons it won\u2019t work, like what we just did, God, that would be fun, because this is, I\u2019m always on the other side of it all the time.<\/p>\n
Yeah.<\/p>\n
Like, \u201cYou should buy a house.\u201d \u201cOh, but housing\u2019s too expensive. Rates are too high.\u201d \u201cOkay, well your rents are going to go up too.\u201d \u201cYeah, I would\u2019ve bought before when rates were lower.\u201d But when rates were lower, it was like every house got 20 offers. You couldn\u2019t get anyone and they were complaining about that. You could just go back. Every single market had problems.
This is a funny thing I was just saying last night to my group. If prices dropped as much as we want them to, that means nobody wants to buy houses, right? So, if all these houses at $800,000 dropped to $300,000 and we\u2019re like, \u201cI\u2019d buy all of them.\u201d No, you wouldn\u2019t, because the only reason they would drop that far if there was some serious massive problems with the industry. You couldn\u2019t find tenants or insurance went up times 10. Something terrible has to happen for no one to want them, right? So, you keep getting these people that are, \u201cI\u2019m waiting for the next crash. I can\u2019t wait.\u201d Assuming that the crash is going to happen and real estate\u2019s still going to be an attractive vehicle, and it will never, ever occur.<\/p>\n
Yeah. The moment it\u2019s doomsday on their prices, everyone\u2019s going to be like, \u201cOh, hey, you know what? Nevermind. Let\u2019s just see how it goes for the next three months.\u201d<\/p>\n
\u201cThis is a bad buck to invest in. It\u2019s going to go down even more. Don\u2019t catch a falling knife, blah, blah, blah.\u201d They\u2019re going to have a reason not to want to do it.<\/p>\n
Yeah, totally.<\/p>\n
So, I thought, Dana, you provided some good stuff there. What do you like about Boston? Is there a lack of environmental hazards that you feel comfortable investing there?<\/p>\n
Generally, yes. I would say that the rising sea levels is our big threat. But we have snowstorms, so it\u2019s expensive. If you have parking, to make sure your driveways are plowed.<\/p>\n
Yes.<\/p>\n
Yeah, that\u2019s a big one.<\/p>\n
We\u2019ve been having freakier weather, for sure, more. We\u2019ve had tornado warnings more commonly than in the past, so we are experiencing some change. Our winters are not as cold as they used to be as when I was a child, which is concerning. But yeah, I mean, in general, I\u2019m with you, David. With real estate, it\u2019s like we can pick apart and we can figure out why we shouldn\u2019t do things, and I have a very high risk tolerance. This is my thing that gets me worked up is the environmental stuff. But yeah, overall, long-term, 30 years out from now, sure. I\u2019m worried about it.<\/p>\n
Rob, you\u2019re a local, or sorry, you\u2019re a fellow out-of-state investor. You never read my book, but you did it anyways, which is cool. Not that I\u2019m upset about you only have reading one book.<\/p>\n
I\u2019ve listened to the podcast, which is kind of like-<\/p>\n
A functional equivalent. It saved you the $12 of getting the book?<\/p>\n
\u2026 Yeah, it\u2019s the director\u2019s cut of your book, the director\u2019s commentary.<\/p>\n
Nice analogy. You have been hanging around me, man. That was very nicely done. But what do you think about when you\u2019re picking these markets to invest in? And should we do an episode where all we do is find negative things about every single market? That could be a fun thing to do where you guys are like, \u201cWhat about here?\u201d And we just find everything we can wrong with it.<\/p>\n
Yeah. What about\u2026 Yeah, what Montana? It\u2019s too beautiful. No.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t want a elk running through my house and trashing the whole thing, and I got to drive too far to get to a gas station, and Teslas would never be able to make it out there. That\u2019d be funny.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t\u2026 I would say, honestly, the biggest thing that scares me is the insurance, especially in Florida. David, we have our Scottsdale property, which has been a bear with insurance on that too. Luxury properties are tough to get insured. So I think, that\u2019s my first and foremost thing, because you sort of need that to be protected, from a liability standpoint. I kind of come from the mindset that everything is fixable, right? It doesn\u2019t mean that I want to, but I have a beach house in Crystal Beach, and there will be a hurricane there again. I understand that. I know that.
It will likely need repairs, and that was sort of, that is my, both my personal home that I use whenever I want, and then I also rent it on Airbnb to help supplement the income. It\u2019s fine. I understand the risk there. It\u2019s very high, so I won\u2019t get flooded. But I probably don\u2019t, I don\u2019t seek it out though. I\u2019m not seeking out buying homes where natural disasters are, right? Probably not going to buy a house in Tornado Alley, per se.<\/p>\n
You don\u2019t want to go into New Orleans and have another huge flood.<\/p>\n
Yeah, not really. It\u2019s not really at the, it\u2019s something I consider, but it\u2019s not necessarily a deal breaker unless it\u2019s clearly in the\u2026 If on Redfin it\u2019s like, \u201cFlood factor, 10 out of 10.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, probably not going to do that.\u201d Right? But overall, everything else, I\u2019m usually okay with if I really like the property or the deal.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s really good. I love that I get to answer last because it\u2019s like playing poker. You get to watch what everybody else\u2019s bets were, and you always have the better position to be in, because I get to hear all your arguments and then sum them up and add one little thing on. Remember when we were interviewing Alex and Layla and he said, \u201cI like to let Layla answer first because I could just take what she said, sum it up and add one extra piece.\u201d And she was like, \u201cYeah, it sucks. I always have to be the\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n
Throw us under the rug.<\/p>\n
Yeah.<\/p>\n
Or your throat. Wait, what is that? What did I just say?<\/p>\n
Under the bus. You were saying sweep it under the rug and throw it under the bus, and you created a hybrid analogy there. I liked it.<\/p>\n
Well, let\u2019s go with it. Let\u2019s go with it.<\/p>\n
So, there\u2019s two things that I would say when it comes to these concerns, which are valid. One, if you can develop the skill of quantifying risk, your crock brain that screams, \u201cThis is going to hurt me,\u201d will quiet down. So, find some way to take the what if this happens and turn that into a number. Numbers aren\u2019t as scary. The easiest way to do that is through insurance, because insurance people are way smarter than I will ever be. They\u2019ve already quantified the risk of flood, the risk of hurricane, the risk of fire, the risk of earthquake, and they\u2019ve turned that into a number that I can just use to protect myself.
So, like Rob said, luxury properties have more expensive insurance. That will cut into your overhead, so it needs to be priced into how you\u2019re going to analyze the deal. But man, insurance is this awesome tool that I can use for all these, \u201cWell, what if this happens?\u201d Well, if I\u2019m covered by insurance and I know how much it is, I can easily underwrite it and make the decision. The other thing is I\u2019ve learned, changes will always happen. At some point, Arizona very well may run out of drinking water. So you got to ask yourself the question, what would happen if that happened? Would we all just say, \u201cWell, there it goes. Time for everybody in the state of Arizona to go somewhere else.\u201d<\/p>\n
Right.<\/p>\n
If you thought that buying the areas you think they\u2019d go to, you\u2019re going to get an influx of demand and you\u2019re going to do well. But probably not. They\u2019re probably going to find a different way to ship water from somewhere else. They\u2019re probably going to change some rule to dig more wells to bring water up, or they\u2019re going to put funding towards turning salt water into clean water, and we\u2019re going to develop a technology, just like we did when we got scared of gas prices being high, and 10 years later, we have electric cars everywhere, right? When everyone\u2019s talking about, \u201cWe\u2019re going to run out of gas,\u201d or, \u201cIt\u2019s too expensive.\u201d We\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, we\u2019ll build electric cars.\u201d We could do the same thing with drinking water. I don\u2019t know exactly how it\u2019d work out because I\u2019m not that smart, but I do know it\u2019s a problem that humans can solve.
That\u2019s why I don\u2019t freak out completely. I just think, if we do this, what would the result be? That\u2019s one of the reasons I sort of understand economics when it comes to the housing market and why prices didn\u2019t drop when everyone said they would. We shut down the country. We should have gone into a great depression, but we didn\u2019t because we printed a bunch of money. Well, what would we expect the result to be? A lot of inflation. Things are going to become more expensive.
So, I adjusted my advice. Don\u2019t quit your job right now. Things are going to get more expensive, and buy assets that rise with inflation, which real estate is one. The people who followed that, they did really well over the last five or six years. I think we\u2019re going to consider to see it. If you could get into the mode of just saying, \u201cHow do I quantify the risk and what can I expect the reaction of humanity to be when these things happen?\u201d You can make calculated decisions that aren\u2019t that bad. But it stops you from getting into analysis paralysis, you guys agree with that?<\/p>\n
Alternatively, you could also buy assets that rise with the sea levels and only buy boats.<\/p>\n
There you go.<\/p>\n
House boats?<\/p>\n
Buy boats and rent them. House boats.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s screaming real estate. It\u2019s a houseboat.<\/p>\n
What\u2019s the land value?<\/p>\n
Zero.<\/p>\n
Do you get the mineral rights?<\/p>\n
Exactly.<\/p>\n
Rob\u2019s told two funny jokes today, man. He\u2019s really stepped his game up here.<\/p>\n
Thank you. You told one, so you could still come out on top here.<\/p>\n
Dana, we got one more question, and Rob talked too long in the last one, so this is only going to you. While we have you here, do you have any insights on the current market that we haven\u2019t talked about today?<\/p>\n
Yeah. So, there\u2019s something that I feel like people aren\u2019t talking about enough in general, which is this misalignment between what\u2019s being built and what people actually want to buy. And if I were to get back into investing actively, this is where I would plug right in. It\u2019s the fact that we\u2019ve got the millennial buyers, they make up over 40% of buyers, and they want single family homes, these traditional homes. And what\u2019s being built, I don\u2019t know if this is just happening where I am or everywhere, but luxury townhouses. And I understand why, developers have to make their margins work.
But the result is, people are fighting over the little inventory for single family homes, the traditional properties. So, people ask me, once they hear that I stopped investing, they\u2019re like, \u201cWhy?\u201d They\u2019re also confused why I never graduated into the commercial space, right? It\u2019s very unusual for somebody to build their entire portfolio off of small multifamily homes. What\u2019s ironic is, now that I\u2019ve taken a step back, if I were to get back into it, I would actually go smaller than small multifamily. I would just go straight into single family homes because I do see this gap, and it\u2019s significant.<\/p>\n
Awesome. I like that line that you said, there is a discrepancy between what people want and what is being built, which always creates opportunity in the market. So, I\u2019ll wrap up by just asking you, Dana, if you were giving advice for people who can take advantage of the opportunity, the gap between what is wanted and what\u2019s being provided, what would you tell?<\/p>\n
What would I tell them? Go for it.<\/p>\n
Yeah?<\/p>\n
Is that what the question was?<\/p>\n
Or specifics of where should they be looking based on what you see. Should people get into spec building? Should people be buying properties and converting them into something different? What should they convert them into?<\/p>\n
So, where I see the opportunity, and it\u2019s this, at least I can speak to this market, the formula is location. Narrow in on the location. Quiet side, straight. Heck, I\u2019ve just bought properties because they\u2019re sunny, and I like the trees in the neighborhood, right? Finding that classic home, paying attention to something called neighborhood conformity. Are you familiar with this term?<\/p>\n
No.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s where, sometimes we go down a street or we go down a neighborhood and we can\u2019t really pinpoint what it is that we like about it. Oftentimes, it\u2019s because the properties all play nice with each other and they\u2019re a similar aesthetic. Maybe they\u2019re all colonials, they\u2019re all a mix of colonials and capes, and they play well. When you see a property that sort of sticks out like a sore thumb, that can be, I think, a higher risk investment. So this concept of neighborhood conformity is something I would pay close attention to if you\u2019re buying a single family home.
And then the last bit is value add, and I know we sort of beat a dead horse with that one. But can you finish out a basement? Can you add livable square footage? Can you reconfigure the current layout to make it more functional for today\u2019s living? All these sorts of ideas can create this power play.<\/p>\n
Awesome. Well, this is awesome. Dana, thank you for joining me on this Seeing Greene. We got to see green, and through the eyes of Dana and Rob today. Where can people find out more about you if they want to reach out?<\/p>\n
So, my website is just my name, danabull.com. I\u2019m on Instagram. It\u2019s a bit cringe-worthy, but you can check me out there. And I\u2019m on LinkedIn.<\/p>\n
Wait, why is it cringe-worthy?<\/p>\n
I just don\u2019t know what I\u2019m doing. Social media is not my thing, but I\u2019m sort of having fun with it.<\/p>\n
You\u2019re talking to the person whose online handle is DavidGreene24, and Rob mercilessly calls me old and boring for having a handle. He thinks it should be like OfficialDavidGreene or DavidGreene_ [inaudible].<\/p>\n
TheRealDavidGreene.<\/p>\n
Yeah. He wants it to be like ThyRealDavidGreene or something, so I don\u2019t think you\u2019re as cringey as you think.<\/p>\n
The 24 works.<\/p>\n
DanaBull_Realtor. That\u2019s awesome. Rob, where can people find out more about you?<\/p>\n
You can find me at Robuilt24 on Instagram, on YouTube, and on Threads. I\u2019m going to add the 24 just for one day, just for you, in solidarity.<\/p>\n
How\u2019s Threads?<\/p>\n
It\u2019s the Instagram Twitter. You can find me at Robuilt. On YouTube, I make fun videos that teach you how to do this real estate thing every week.<\/p>\n
All right. Well, thank you Dana. If people want to follow me, they can do so here on BiggerPockets, or my social media is DavidGreene24 on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter or YouTube. So, go check me out there. Great time with you, Dana. Thank you for coming back, and congratulations on your successful business and making real estate work for the life that you wanted for yourself. Very nice to see.<\/p>\n
So cool.<\/p>\n
Thank you.<\/p>\n
This is David Greene for Rob. No asky, no getty Abasolo. Signing off.<\/p>\n