\n<\/p>\n
If you want to know how to make millions of dollars in real estate<\/strong><\/a>, skip the rental properties, renovations, and rehabs and go straight for this type of \u201c<\/strong>land investing<\/strong><\/a>.\u201d<\/strong> Our own Kathy Fettke<\/strong> is using this type of deal to make MILLIONS of dollars without building a single home<\/strong> or managing ANY tenants. This is all from one piece of land, where Kathy simply needs to put down just under five percent of the total purchase price, and in a few years, she\u2019ll walk away with millions in profits. What type of deal is she doing, and how can you do it too?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n We\u2019re back with another deal show as we dive deep into three real estate deals that our expert guests have on their hands. First, Henry <\/strong>will show off a simple <\/strong>house flip<\/strong><\/a> that will net him thirteen times his money <\/strong>when he sells. Then, Kathy will uncover the rarely talked about but unbelievably lucrative type of land investing<\/strong> that can make you millions. Finally, James <\/strong>hits on a \u201cdense\u201d flip\/<\/strong>development<\/strong><\/a> deal <\/strong>that will turn one home into many and give his team almost half a million dollars in profit<\/strong>!<\/p>\n If you want to submit your deal for a future show, post it on the <\/strong>On the Market <\/em>forums<\/strong><\/a> where you can get other investor takes!<\/p>\n Dave: Henry: Kathy: Henry: Dave: Henry: Dave: Henry: Dave: James: Dave: James: Henry: James: Dave: Henry: Dave: James: Dave: Kathy: Dave: Henry: Dave: James: Dave: Kathy: Dave: James: Dave: Kathy: Dave: Henry: Dave: Kathy: Dave: James: Dave: Henry: Dave: Kathy: Dave: Henry: Dave: Henry: James: Henry: Kathy: James: Kathy: Henry: James: Henry: James: Henry: James: Dave: Kathy: Dave: Kathy: Dave: James: Kathy: James: Kathy: Henry: Kathy: Dave: Kathy: Dave: James: Kathy: Henry: James: Henry: James: Henry: James: Henry: James: Kathy: James: Henry: James: Henry: James: Dave: Kathy: Dave: Henry: Dave: James: Dave: \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Help us reach new listeners on iTunes by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found here<\/a>. Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n Interested in learning more about today\u2019s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email <\/em>[email\u00a0protected]<\/span><\/em><\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n Note By BiggerPockets:<\/b> These are opinions written by the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of BiggerPockets.<\/p>\n
Hey everyone, welcome to On The Market. I\u2019m your host Dave Meyer. Joined today by Kathy, James and Henry. Henry, you probably have the most exciting story, so tell everyone where you are right now.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I\u2019m in Maui. I\u2019m here for work though. It\u2019s not a fun trip. I\u2019m going to work extremely hard while I\u2019m here.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m not sure I believe you or not. It\u2019s not a fun trip.<\/p>\n
I\u2019ll work one day during the trip.<\/p>\n
Out of how many though?<\/p>\n
Well, I mean, I mean out of 10, but still it\u2019s going to be work.<\/p>\n
Yeah, still a write-off, right? If you work one out of 10 days.<\/p>\n
The IRS has entered the chat. No, I am only writing off what is absolutely necessary. Dave Meyer, I will not be in excess with my write-offs. Tax guy listening.<\/p>\n
Well, I was going to say have fun, but I guess don\u2019t have any fun and work very hard on your trip to Maui.
James, you\u2019re clearly not on a boat. Where are you?<\/p>\n
I\u2019m out in Hilton Head, South Carolina checking out houses. Completely awesome. A little bit blown away by how nice it is.<\/p>\n
Are you moving?<\/p>\n
Don\u2019t know yet. Well, you know what, Dave? I\u2019m constantly on the move, so I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t ever settle.<\/p>\n
I have seen you and or heard of you looking to buy a house in three parts of the country in the last six months. I literally was there when you were looking at houses in Phoenix and now you\u2019re in South Carolina. Before it was, where was it, Wilmington? I mean everybody needs James Dainard problems. I\u2019m serious. This is my theme for the entire show.<\/p>\n
Itchy fingers.<\/p>\n
Henry, how nice do you think the houses are each place is?<\/p>\n
Oh, I saw one of the ones in Phoenix and it was a house, is a gross understatement. That was more like a compound slash castle. I didn\u2019t want to go inside. I felt like if I walk in the door, I just had to pay a thousand dollars. I don\u2019t know to what? I just felt like I needed to put it somewhere in the house.<\/p>\n
It was just a cover at James\u2019s house to enter.<\/p>\n
Well, I highly recommend people check Hilton Head out. It\u2019s a beautiful, beautiful place.<\/p>\n
Kathy, you seem at home, but your house is so nice you don\u2019t have to leave.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m home. I\u2019m so happy to be home. I love it.<\/p>\n
All right, well I\u2019m glad to hear it. All right, well we have a great show for everyone today. We\u2019re going to be talking about deals that all three of you are actually doing in today\u2019s market. Everyone knows that this has been a challenging and confusing year, but deals are out there for sure and Henry, Kathy and James are going to share with you some of the deals that they are working on right now.
Before we get into that, we are going to test your knowledge with a game that uncovers how much you know about home buyers right now. And I think this is a really good data set for us to look at because at least, I don\u2019t know if you guys encounter these people, but everyone\u2019s like, \u201cWho can afford to buy a house right now in this market?\u201d Or, \u201cWho\u2019s actually still participating in this market?\u201d And today we are going to see how well you actually know the answer to that.
All right, what is the average age of a home seller? Henry, let\u2019s start with you.<\/p>\n
Oh, average age of a home seller. I\u2019m going to go 37.<\/p>\n
Okay. James?<\/p>\n
I sell a lot of houses, so I\u2019m going to go my age 40. Maybe, I\u2019m hoping I can, I\u2019m bringing the median into there. So 40 is what I\u2019m going with.<\/p>\n
All right, Kathy?<\/p>\n
I\u2019ll say 42 because they\u2019ve got more kids and they need more space.<\/p>\n
Well, despite this being a trick question, because there are actually no home sellers this year, they did give us an answer, which was 60. 60.<\/p>\n
What?<\/p>\n
Boomers are selling.<\/p>\n
Oh, wow.<\/p>\n
Yeah. 60 is the median age of home sellers. That\u2019s crazy. Wow.<\/p>\n
Because they can sell the home they bought for $20,000 for 486 million?<\/p>\n
Yes, exactly. Yeah, it\u2019s just pure profit. All right, for our last question, this is an interesting one. Where did most home buyers find their home purchase? So how did they identify the home that they wanted to buy? And I should mention all of this comes from NAR, all of this data. So some answers just so you know, are like the internet, through an agent, a yard sign. What is the most common way to find a home these days?<\/p>\n
Internet.<\/p>\n
All right, James?<\/p>\n
I mean, it\u2019s got to be the internet. Everybody is addicted to Redfin and Zillow, so I feel pretty confident it\u2019s going to be that.<\/p>\n
Absolutely. Henry?<\/p>\n
You have to be right. Yeah, it can\u2019t be anything else.<\/p>\n
All right. You are correct. I had to give you guys an easy one. Kailyn, give me an option of a couple.<\/p>\n
Thank you.<\/p>\n
And I just picked the one that I knew none of you could get wrong. Well, thank you as always for playing. We are now going to take a break and then move on to our conversation about the deals that you all are doing.
Welcome back to On The Market. We are going to now talk about deals that everyone is doing right now. Henry, I\u2019d love to start with you. Tell me a little bit about a project of interest that you\u2019re working on right now.<\/p>\n
Well, first and foremost, I love doing these shows because we\u2019re often telling people, \u201cYou need to be investing no matter the market.\u201d And so we actually get to show that we\u2019re actually doing this, and so, one that\u2019s great.
Two, I really appreciate you, Dave, for letting me go first because my deals always seem so humbling in front of these multimillion dollar deals that these other people do, and so thank you for not putting my tiny deal behind James or Kathy\u2019s multi-million dollar operation. It makes me feel so much better.<\/p>\n
You\u2019re welcome.<\/p>\n
Yeah, man. I like being the small town guy and so the deal I\u2019m presenting is a flip deal, it\u2019s a single family flip. We are purchasing it for $200,000. The renovation budget is somewhere between 15 and 25 depending on what we decided to do with it. I think we landed somewhere right around 20,000 on the renovation and it is selling for 310,000 right now.
What I like about this deal for this market, is the market is telling us right now, that you\u2019re going to get paid for doing flips because houses are still valued very high and people still are trying to get or wanting to get those 2022 numbers, and in some cases they are. And so with interest rates being so high, it\u2019s difficult to cashflow some of these single family deals.
It\u2019s much easier, or I should say it\u2019s much less difficult to cashflow multifamily deals, but when you\u2019ve got a single family deal, it\u2019s hard to make that a rental. Sometimes it\u2019s even hard to make it a short-term rental and make the cashflow make sense with the high interest rates. And so this is a great deal for this market for a couple of reasons.
One, it is a light renovation, meaning it\u2019s less than $40,000. It\u2019s cosmetic. We\u2019re putting paint on the walls, we\u2019re updating the flooring, granite countertops, putting a backsplash in. We\u2019re only updating one of the bathroom showers, the other one is fine the way it is. It\u2019s in a working class neighborhood where a lot of people need to and want to live. And so I know there\u2019s demand there to live in that neighborhood. There\u2019s schools around it. It\u2019s close to the interstate so you can get anywhere fairly quickly, but because it\u2019s a light renovation, that means two things.
One, I can get the job done fairly quickly. And two, it saves me a ton of money because interest rates are high and the cost of money is high. And so the less time I can hold something, the better for me. And so doing a hundred thousand dollars renovation, sure you can get to bigger profits that way, but you\u2019re going to eat up a lot of your profits and holding costs, when you\u2019re doing those big renovations.
And so this one, I can turn it around fairly quickly. We\u2019re selling it for 310 and so we should net somewhere between 60 and $70,000 for doing $25,000 worth of work. I\u2019ll do those all day long, so doesn\u2019t make sense to hold this one. I couldn\u2019t rent it for what I\u2019ll be all in for, but I\u2019m fairly confident in being able to sell it because of the location and it\u2019s going to save me money on the renovation time.<\/p>\n
Lipstick flip. I love that deal. And that\u2019s a huge, I mean it doesn\u2019t matter the size of the deals, it\u2019s about what is your annualized return in the cash on cash. That is a great deal.
Henry, how are you leveraging that deal too? Are you A, do you need a loan? B\u2026 I like the loan to value on that for sure, but how are you, how much cash are you going to have in that deal? 60 grand on a cosmetic deal is a great, I mean that\u2019s a great hit, especially in that market.
In our metro markets, we can\u2019t get those returns on cosmetic deals at that price point. If we\u2019re buying a cosmetic deal, 200 grand in, we\u2019re going to be a 15% return, maybe 25, 30% with leverage. But it\u2019s in and out really quick. So what kind of leverage are you stacking on that and what\u2019s your going to be, your annualized return?<\/p>\n
Yeah. We use a private money on this one. 11% interest, interest only payments. I put $5,000 down to buy the deal and they\u2019re covering purchase and renovation. So I\u2019m five grand out of pocket in order for me to turn around and sell this thing in 90 days, well probably close to 120 days.<\/p>\n
I wanted to piggyback on what James said, and that is the size of the deal doesn\u2019t matter. I do mean when we do bigger deals and when I explain mine, you\u2019ll know what I\u2019m talking about. There\u2019s more staff you need, so there\u2019s more overhead and in the end it may turn out that your deals are making more. So keep that in mind.<\/p>\n
Anytime you can hit 13X on your money in a short run of window, that\u2019s a home run.<\/p>\n
Yeah. That\u2019s a home run.<\/p>\n
Yeah. No, I love deals like this and I think people need to be more open to looking for deals like this. I think what happens with new investors is they do too much, right? Somebody might see this deal and try to spend 50, 60 grand on the renovation because they want to tear all the kitchen cabinets out and put new kitchen cabinets in.
They want to tear down a wall and redesign the kitchen and relocate it, right? They see what\u2019s happening on flip shows on TV and they think that that\u2019s what you need to do to sell a house. We didn\u2019t tear any walls out in this house. We didn\u2019t tear out the kitchen cabinets. We just took the cabinet drops off, put granite in, put new appliances in.
Now, the one value add I wanted to mention that we did in this place for flips, I always look for how can I add value under roof without spending a ton of money. And so for this property, the previous owner converted part of the garage into interior living space, but they didn\u2019t take the time to vent the HVAC into that new room. And so it wasn\u2019t included in the heated and cooled square footage and they didn\u2019t do it right. So the flooring was still sloped, like a garage floor might be sloped.
And so we went into that room, tore up the flooring, leveled out the flooring, and then put new flooring in and then took the HVAC, invented it into that room, and we have it staged as like an office or a game room. And so we were able to now add square footage to that room. So instead of selling this house for 275, 285, we\u2019re selling it for 310 because we added square footage, heated and cooled square footage into that room.<\/p>\n
Henry, I know there\u2019s probably no magic formula, but how do you personally decide how much to take on in a project like this? I know you said that you want to do it quickly and get in and get out, but how do you know when enough is enough?<\/p>\n
Looking at the comps? And so we\u2019ll always look at the comps in the neighborhood to see what\u2019s sold recently and what was done to those comps in order for them to sell. And in this neighborhood, most of the comps were either lightly renovated or not renovated at all, in selling for top dollar. And so we figured if we could do a light renovation, make it stand out above those and not be all in a ton of money, then we would be in a good position. So the best way is you got to look at what your competition is doing.
My agent will typically tell me, he\u2019ll say, \u201cHey, I\u2019ll sell this one for you for $325,000, but you got to do everything.\u201d And he\u2019ll send me the comp, so I can see what got to do everything means. Or he\u2019ll say, \u201cHey, you can do a really light renovation here.\u201d And he\u2019ll send me the comp. So we look at everything that\u2019s selling around us to know what we\u2019re going to do.<\/p>\n
Yeah. And another thing to also look at, and I love what Henry said is flipping is not art.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s math.<\/p>\n
Some of our clients, they really do enjoy the process. They\u2019re like, \u201cI\u2019m okay making less money, because I want to put this together.\u201d And that\u2019s fine, that\u2019s what you should do as an investor. But what it comes down to is math. What do the comps say? But then also what is your annualized return?
A big mistake a lot of flippers make is they go for the higher profit, but it takes double as long and you can make less profit but make more money because you\u2019re turning your money so fast. And so, one thing I always like to do on the cosmetic is, what\u2019s the annualized return? Small profit is okay, if you\u2019re getting your money in and out really quick.<\/p>\n
All right, well with that, let\u2019s move on to Kathy because I think she is the opposite of a deal that you get out of quickly. Kathy, tell us what you\u2019re working on.<\/p>\n
Well, this is a great market, contrary to what some people think. This is the time that we\u2019re able to find deals again that we couldn\u2019t over the last five years of boom or even longer. I started doing entitlement projects in 2009 when land was super cheap, then land prices went up and they\u2019re still up, but we\u2019re back to doing a deal that I haven\u2019t been able to do for a while, which is entitlement, entitlement only.
So what that means is basically changing the use of land, it has to go through the city and you rezone it and it takes a lot of work. It is a lot of political skill there because you\u2019re dealing with the local city council. And for an entitlement deal like this, you really need to have a good idea of whether the current city council is going to like your plan, and if that council is going to be in power for a while, because if all of a sudden it changes from growth to no growth type politicians, then you\u2019re kind of in a bad way. Which is why builders don\u2019t really like doing the entitlement phase.
A builder generally isn\u2019t going to just go in and buy raw land and go through the entitlement process. So if you can do that for them, it\u2019s really, really lucrative. So to give you an idea, again, this is with my partner that I\u2019ve been working with since 2009. He\u2019s a 45-year veteran builder, really understands this stuff. It\u2019s extremely risky. So I would only do an entitlement deal with somebody like my partner who\u2019s done so many and really knows how to negotiate with city council people.
So basically we are buying farmland in Danville, California, which is right outside, I don\u2019t know, 30 minutes outside of San Francisco. It\u2019s amazing that there\u2019s still farmland, raw land there and it\u2019s right off of Crow Canyon and that\u2019s a popular area. Great schools, really high end area. We have a purchase sale agreement for $6 million and an option payment of basically a down payment of 250,000, but we don\u2019t have to close until 2025.
So these are deals that we\u2019ve done many, many times together, where you just have to put the option payment and then you go through this two-year process of getting the entitlements and then you do a double close at the end.
So we are in contract for the 6 million, we only have to put down the 250,000. The rest of the money goes towards the entitlement process and developing the lots once we get those entitlements. And then we sell the lots, which will be about $14 million.
So it\u2019s a huge return for the investors. It\u2019s a 15% preferred for the investors. We haven\u2019t come out with this yet, we\u2019re still working on some details before we do, but we did something similar just in the town down the street in Dublin where we tied up property for, I think we had to bring in about 1.6 million and we sold it for 20 million. The purchase contract was for 10 million, but we ended up selling it for 20 million to Pulte Homes.
So in this case we already have the builder who wants the lots. They\u2019ve already stated what they\u2019ll pay for those lots, which is 850,000. It\u2019s only 16 lots, but this is a very high end area where $850,000 for a lot is normal, but there aren\u2019t any finished lots for this builder to buy and they don\u2019t like taking the entitlement risk.
So it\u2019s not for everybody, because there is risk, a hundred percent. People have to know there\u2019s risk in this deal, but that risk is really lessened because of the amount of experience we have in the area and in this type of thing.<\/p>\n
So just so I can summarize, it sounds like you are putting down $250,000 for the right to buy this property for 6 million. How much will it cost on top of that to actually do the work of entitlement?<\/p>\n
Yeah. So it\u2019d be about 22 months to entitle it. And we have already spoken to the local board, the supervisors and they want more lots. The cities make money when there\u2019s homes that they could get property taxes on. So depending on who\u2019s on the board and if they\u2019re more pro-growth and no growth, they\u2019ve already agreed they like this, the builder\u2019s already agreed. So it is about 2 million in costs and the land is 6 million and we plan to sell it for 14.<\/p>\n
Whoo! I like those numbers.<\/p>\n
I love entitlement deals. We type a lot of lots in Seattle. You get them on terms and the best thing about entitlements is you\u2019re getting them on terms so you don\u2019t have to bring up the cash.
Now, what Kathy\u2019s doing is a large subdivision, which has a huge hit on it, but your end buyer, that builder will pay you a massive premium, because what builders are doing is they\u2019re all about leverage and moving their cash rapidly. If that builder has to come in and park\u2026 How much was the lot again, Kathy?<\/p>\n
Oh, it\u2019s 14 lots and we\u2019re paying, it will be 14 lots. We\u2019re paying, no, 17 lots and we\u2019re paying 6 million for the land, but we don\u2019t have to close on it. That\u2019s we\u2019re using the leverage, the power of it\u2019s just an option, so we don\u2019t have to close it for two years.<\/p>\n
Yeah. And the reason why builders will pay what they\u2019re paying is because if they sit 6 million down, A, it\u2019s hard to get leverage on raw lots right now, but even if they got 50%, they got to come in with $3 million down. That has to sit there for two years and builders want to keep that money working and that\u2019s also, they need it in their accounts for baking purposes and when they can get extra financing out there.
So the entitlement business is great because you tie up, you do all the hard work and they will pay you the absolute premium when that permit is issued in hand, because they can close and start building tomorrow, which is going to really increase the return.
There\u2019s huge, huge money in the entitlement business. We\u2019ve been selling lots for 10 years and it is one of the best businesses out there because it really just comes down to moving paperwork, working with the city and then running a good feasibility.
Kathy, what kind of feasibility are you guys doing on this? Is it like a 30 or 60-day feasibility? What kind of testing are you doing? What are things that you guys are looking out for?<\/p>\n
Most of that\u2019s already been done. We do those reports before we bring this to investors.<\/p>\n
I like these kinds of deals and I\u2019ve heard of other people doing similar deals and I\u2019ve never really gotten into one, until this year because I\u2019m accidentally doing one.
I actually bought a house on a double lot and the house was a tear down and so we ended up tearing it down and I bought it over a year and a half ago. And so back then interest rates were lower and the cost to build was lower back then. And so I bought it. We spent the money to tear the house down and the plan was to redevelop, to rezone the land, to build multifamily on it. And so we went ahead and did the work to change the entitlement so that we could sell.
We were going to build and develop an 8-unit property on that land. And then prices have changed and it costs more to build now and the interest rates keep going up. And so I don\u2019t have the same return I was expecting. And so I was like, \u201cI wonder if a developer would love to buy this.\u201d Because it\u2019s already set up for them to buy it. We have all the approvals, they just need to buy it and start the work.
And so we list, I paid 30 grand for the house, I spent 10 grand tearing the house down and another 15 grand or so doing the work that needs to be done to the land in order to have it ready for the development. And now we\u2019re selling it to a developer for like 170,000. So I\u2019m doing it on a much smaller scale by accident just because I don\u2019t want to do the project, but now I\u2019m thinking, \u201cHow many other houses in this neighborhood can I go snag for 30 grand and do this again?\u201d<\/p>\n
Yeah. Yeah. So in response to James\u2019 question, I have it in front of me now that the investigation period, we do that before bringing investors in. So that\u2019s the environmental geotech, the base engineering map, biological investigation, the outreach to the city of Danville because that\u2019s the most important. You\u2019ve got to know who you\u2019re dealing with. It really comes down to the city council. They could, it\u2019s just a small group of people who can approve or deny. So that\u2019s probably one of the biggest.<\/p>\n
All right, sounds like a great deal, Kathy. Eager to hear how that goes two years from now, but it\u2019ll be very interesting to see how this progresses and thanks for bringing a new type of deal. I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve ever talked about entitlement on this show before.<\/p>\n
And land is not cheap today. Prices are going up right now because builders recognize that there\u2019s really a need to bring on new supply. So when you can reach out to an owner who maybe isn\u2019t aware of that yet, and work out a deal like this where you don\u2019t actually have to close with all the funds for a little while, it\u2019s a great opportunity, but that opportunity could be slipping because people are becoming more aware that land prices are going up.<\/p>\n
All right, James, what do you got cooking?<\/p>\n
We\u2019re going to talk about density and maximizing your deal. So we actually bought a fix and flip property in North Seattle about five months ago. We\u2019re currently in permits on it right now, and we paid $460,000 for this property. Originally, what we were going to do is put about 110,000 to 125,000 in and sell it for about 7, 750. And then once we started running the numbers on it, we\u2019re going, \u201cOkay, well the flip\u2019s, okay. We\u2019re going to make 50 or about 60 to $70,000 after all costs are said done.\u201d Henry\u2019s deal sounds way better to me than that.
So it was a lot of work for the money, but we liked that buy price of 460. It\u2019s very, very cheap for the area. But as we were looking at it, what\u2019s happened in the city of Seattle is there\u2019s been a lot of upzoning, a lot of affordable housing and they are maximizing density. They eliminated the single family zoning.
And so what that does, that allowed us, we\u2019re sitting on a 6,800 square foot lot and we have a two bedroom, one back house on the front that\u2019s 740 square feet up top, and then we have 740 square feet in the basement. And according to new zoning, after we started looking at this, we then realized, \u201cOkay, well this might highest and best use, might be to get this thing densified.\u201d
So what we are doing is we\u2019re actually turning the single family house into an ADU, which is kind of weird. It\u2019s an 1800 square foot house that will be an ADU. And then we\u2019re building an 1800 square foot single family house that we\u2019re going to attach this flip property with one single wall at that point and we\u2019re going to have an 1800 square foot house. And then we\u2019re also going to build a detached DADU, so a two bedroom, 2.5 bath, a 1200 square foot property.
So by maximizing this, we went from making 60 to $70,000. Now we have a combined value of 2.45 million from the 700 that we thought it was. We\u2019re going to be able to sell the ADU for about 700,000, the detached DADU for about 750 to 800,000, and the single family will sell for about a million to 1,000,050. So instead of flipping the property over a six to nine month period, now it\u2019s going to take us about 18 months, but the profit potential in this deal is going to be roughly about 390 to $450,000, which is going to be an 82% annualized return on that.
So we went from just doing a simple flip on it to maximizing that the density. And that\u2019s been really important in today\u2019s market because there\u2019s lack of deal flow and if there\u2019s a lack of deal flow, you have to look at how do you maximize that deal in an efficient manner.
And so we really kind of stepped, our original plan was just to flip it and then we took a step back and we\u2019re at the middle of permits. In addition to once permits are issued, we always do that as a check-in point when we\u2019re doing these kind of deals. We might do what Henry did and flip it off to a builder too, because typically builders will pay us about 35% of the combined value on this property, which is going to be about $700,000 for this property. So we might be able to make $250,000 just by selling the permitted site. So it\u2019s a very flexible, dense deal. It takes a little bit longer, but the margins are there.<\/p>\n
Love it. You just gave me a great idea for a problem property I have.<\/p>\n
So talk to us about the funding for something like this, James. So obviously your rehab budget is not a rehab budget. It\u2019s a new construction budget now. And so where does the funding for that come from? How much of your own money do you have to put into doing something like this and how long is it? You said it\u2019s tied up for 18 months?<\/p>\n
Yeah. And that\u2019s a great question, Henry. So originally we bought it with hard money and we\u2019re paying 12% interest right now on that. We put $75,000 down when we bought the property. So we put a little bit under 20% down when we bought it, and we\u2019re sitting servicing that debt for the next, it\u2019s be about a total permit time of about nine months on that. So we came in with about $70,000 down and then we have to pay about 3,500 to $4,000 a month during that time.
Once permits are issued, then our local construction lender or a local bank will then issue us 85% of the total project costs. So we only have to bring in 15% of the total bill, which is going to be about 460 plus, about 1.35 mil to build that out. So we come in with 15% of that in addition to, we actually have an interest reserve, so we make no more interest payments for the 12 months at that point.
And so that\u2019s how we get to the 82% annualized cash on cash return because our total down payment on this is going to be about 300 grand and we have potential to make 350 to 400, all said and done.<\/p>\n
So what you\u2019re saying for people who probably aren\u2019t familiar is that deferred interest means once you start the construction period, you don\u2019t have to make any interest payments, so your carrying costs are lower during that construction period or just whatever you\u2019re paying for your utilities. Is that correct?<\/p>\n
Correct. Yeah. The bank basically builds that into the loan to value, so we don\u2019t have to make an interest payment or debt cost that entire time.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s pretty sweet.<\/p>\n
Local banks are the key. You got to get good and value.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s my jam, man.<\/p>\n
Yeah.<\/p>\n
I love it. And in California, that is one way you can actually make money because there is legislation where cities really can\u2019t turn down an ADU if you were to put a second unit on your property. Still some do, like the town I\u2019m in, still can\u2019t do it, but it is a really great way to increase density, provide more housing, and increase the value. I love it.<\/p>\n
Then you want to make sure wherever you\u2019re looking that they allow you to economize them off. In Seattle, we can actually do a condo overlay. Condo each one of those off and sell them separately. Some cities do not allow that, so you do want to research that. With Seattle, once that passed, it just made sense for us to start really exploring that model.<\/p>\n
Yeah, man. With the density issues doing ADUs and DADUs are becoming much more easier to do. You still have to deal with a lot of the NIMBY folks sometimes, but I mean, it used to be very difficult to get approvals to do things like this, and so now the approvals are easy. It\u2019s just more about how do you structure the funding to be able to pay for some of these things.<\/p>\n
And NIMBY, of course, not in my backyard. Yeah, that is so often the case. But again, in California, they did pass a law that I don\u2019t even think nimbyism will stop an ADU unless you\u2019re in a coastal commission area where they override everything and they don\u2019t want too much density near the ocean for, I don\u2019t know, environmental reasons. But if you\u2019re not near the coast, it\u2019s really hard to block an ADU on your land.
So if in California, if you could do something like that in these high-priced markets where you get a house with a large enough lot, you can definitely increase value that way or just keep the property and have two rentals on one.<\/p>\n
My other question for you, James, was you had mentioned when you were talking about the deal, you were kind of pricing out each individual structure. Does that mean you\u2019re going to sell each structure separately or are you just saying that each structure is valued at this amount and then we\u2019ll sell the whole thing to one person? Or are you subdividing that land?<\/p>\n
We\u2019re condo wise, so we\u2019re selling them separately. If we went to sell it, it actually mathematically wouldn\u2019t make sense to buy that at two point, our combined value around 2.3, the cap rate would be like a five cap. Now, that was working when rates were low and there was a lot of demand for rental property at that time. But in today\u2019s market, we\u2019re pricing them all separately.<\/p>\n
All right, well it sounds like we got three great deals and great examples of how being creative and knowing your local market extremely well, can lead to excellent deals even during these times with high interest rates and very low inventory.
I think that\u2019s all we got for today. But before we get out of here, where can people follow you guys to learn more about these deals and follow along? Kathy, let\u2019s start with you.<\/p>\n
Realwealth.com is where you can find me, my company. And then on Instagram, kathyfettke.<\/p>\n
Henry?<\/p>\n
Best place to find me is on Instagram. I\u2019m @thehenrywashington on Instagram.<\/p>\n
And James?<\/p>\n
IG is a good place to find me, @jdainflips or jamesdainard.com.<\/p>\n
All right, great. Well, thank you all so much for listening. We greatly appreciate it. If you do want to share any deals that you\u2019re doing currently, you can always do that on the BiggerPockets forums. We actually even have an On The Market section there, and we would love to hear about the deals that our listeners are doing. So make sure to check that out. You can go to biggerpockets.com\/forums and do just that.
Thanks again for listening, we\u2019ll see you next time.
On The Market is created by me, Dave Meyer and Kailyn Bennett. Produced by Kailyn Bennett, editing by Joel Esparza and Onyx Media. Research by Pooja Jindal, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. And a very special thanks to the entire BiggerPockets team.
The content on the show On The Market are opinions only. All listeners should independently verify data points, opinions, and investment strategies.<\/p>\n