Section 8 Investing and Which Cash Flow Markets Make Sense

Ashley Kehr:
This is Real Estate Rookie, Episode 238.

Ashley Hamilton:
If you are new and you’re just wanting to get started and you want that cash flow, it’s not a situation where if you make a mistake and fail that you could lose your shirt. Obviously nobody wants to lose money, but I’d rather lose a couple thousand then a $100,000 or something like that. But again, with Detroit, we’re very cash flow heavy. There’s a lot of demand and especially in Section 8, so I feel like it’s a great market for rookies to infiltrate because it’s so low risk with the guarantee rents and things like that.

Ashley Kehr:
My name is Ashley Kerr, and I’m here with my co-host Tony Robinson.

Tony:
Welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast where every week, twice a week, we bring you the inspiration, information, stories you need to hear to kickstart your investing journey. I want to start this podcast by shouting out some folks in the Rookie audience. Today we have a podcast review from someone with the username Owen Warren. Owen says, “Total game changer!!! I started out listening to the OG Bigger Pockets Podcast which gave me a plethora of information, but sometimes so much that it can lead to analysis paralysis.” I know we’ve all been there. “While I still enjoy the OG Podcast, my focus has shifted more so to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast, due to the fact that I’m still relatively new to real estate investing and have only completed a handful of deals. So whether you’re brand new or have a well-balanced real estate portfolio, I believe Tony and Ashley, along with their guests, have great content to share with you guys. Thank you all for everything.”
Man, that’s one of the nicer reviews I think we’ve got in a while. If you haven’t yet, please leave us an honest rating and review on whatever platform that you’re listening to. The more reviews we get, the more folks we can help. And that’s always our goal here. So Ashley Kerr, what’s up? How you doing today?

Ashley Kehr:
Good, good. I got a child sick from school today. Sick or skipping school, still not sure yet what the consensus is. Yeah, it’s been pretty busy. The end of the year is coming, and we actually have an episode coming up for you guys in the next couple weeks that’s going to be about goal setting. So how did Tony and I do on our goals last year? What are our goals going to be for 2023? Now is the time to start thinking about that and kind of putting your action steps and your most important next steps in place.

Tony:
Yeah, I think a lot of people almost wait too long to start having that discussion, so I am excited to get into that. Yesterday I had an hour and a half long call with my CPA, just kind of like game planning for next year. We’re in October right now, so I think it is helpful to start thinking about the next year before the next year actually gets here, that way you’re kind of one step ahead of the game. We’re doing the same thing in our business as well. We’re already now trying to identify what some of the blockers and the obstacles might be for our real estate business next year as well. So for all of our Rookies that are listening, if you guys haven’t taken some time to start thinking about the oncoming year and what it looks like for you, you should definitely, definitely set aside a day to start putting that game plan in place.

Ashley Kehr:
And a great point, too, with talking to your CPA is even reviewing the past year, and see if there’s anything you need to do before the end of the year hit.

Tony:
Yeah, totally.

Ashley Kehr:
Because you can only write off things in 2022 for this year. So you can’t wait until the year is over and then talk to your accountant and be like, “Oh man, I should have done this differently, or maybe I should have bought this,” blah, blah, blah.

Tony:
I just want to share something that I learned in that conversation with my CPA. Cost segregation is one of the big benefits of buying real estate, and I always thought that you could only perform a cost segregation in the year that you purchased the property. So if I buy a property in 2022, I have to complete the cost segregation in 2022. But she corrected me and told me that you’re not limited to the year that you purchased it.
So if I purchased a property in 2022, as long as I put it into service in 2022, I can still get all of the cost segregation benefits that come along with buying that property in 2022. So for example, at the end of this year, bonus depreciation goes from 100% in the first year to 80% in the first year, and then the last 20% is spread out over five years. So before, if I have a, I don’t know, $160,000 cost segregation depreciation I was able to use, I could use all of that in one year in 2022. But moving forward, I only get 80% of that in the first year, and then a decrease every year there afterwards. So I was like, “Man, I got to do a bunch of cost segregation this year to get all of that benefit.” She’s like, “Well, Tony, not necessarily.” She’s like, “Any property that you put into service in 2022 will still have the ability to use 100% bonus appreciation even if you do that cost segregation a year from now or two years from now.” That was something that was news to me that honestly made me pretty happy, because we put quite a few properties into service this year.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, and to kind of spread it out so that you’re not taking it all in one year when maybe you don’t even need it. So you could transfer that, do a little the next year, and then some the following year too. Yeah, that’s really interesting. I didn’t know that either that you could do it later on.

Tony:
Yeah.

Ashley Kehr:
Well, today we have another special Rookie Reply format for you guys. We have Ashley Hamilton with us. She is a Detroit investor. You may have seen her on Instagram or the Bigger Pockets Podcast. She just had her second debut on there. Her first episode I think was one of the best performing episodes ever on the OG podcast, so you guys will have to check it out. But Ashley comes on with us live at BPCON. Yes, that’s right. Me and Tony are still giving you guys interviews that we did in the basement of the hotel at BPCON. We want to bring Ashley on and we’re going to talk a little bit about her, but she’s also going to walk us through how she invests in properties, and as a Rookie what is the best way that you can get started that she thinks of. She kind of goes through these steps that she implements and thinks that will be beneficial to you guys to help you get started. Before we bring Ashley on though, we are going to do an actual Rookie Reply.

Tony:
This week’s Ricky Reply comes from Cullen Lewis. Cullen’s question is, “Real estate rookie here. My wife and I are really wanting to buy real estate properties, but the market where we live is currently too expensive for us. Is it a bad idea to invest in properties out of state where the housing market is cheaper and more affordable for us? Or, would it be better to save more money and just invest in the market we are currently living in?”
I’ll take a stab at this first, Ashley, and then I’ll pass it over to you. I think a lot of it depends on what your goals are, Cullen. If your goals are to maximize your tax benefits and appreciation, then maybe investing in a market that’s more expensive might actually be a good thing, right? Because historically markets that are more expensive, like California, parts of New York, they tend to appreciate more than some of the more Midwestern or more affordable states. If the appreciation is a big motivating factor for you, then maybe investing in your own market does make sense.
If cash flow is what’s most important to you, then yes, there might be a benefit to going into a market that’s less expensive and can probably give you a better cash on cash return.
I think there are some things to balance there, but if you do decide to go out of state first, read David Greene’s book on out of state investing. It’s a great, great resource for both new and seasoned investors on how to build the team to invest out of state. But second, I think, don’t just chase the markets that are super, super inexpensive, because sometimes you can find yourself in the wrong neighborhood. If you don’t know that state, you don’t know that city, you can find yourself with a property that’s difficult to manage. We’ll bring Ashley on here in a second, Ashley Hamilton, and she’ll talk a little bit about how she’s been able to invest in Detroit, but it’s because she knows that area and she knows how to find the right tenants in that market. So I think if you do go into a market that’s historically less expensive, you really want to do your homework to make sure you’re investing in the right part of town.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, and I think a great way to find another one of those markets is to look where other people are investing, and then do your own research from there. Because how many markets are there across the US? There’s a lot. So look where other people are investing, and then go and do your market research from there. Like Tony had said, what is your goal? Is it cash flow? Are these cash flow performing assets? Are you going to be buying properties that are super old on the east coast? We just had a guest on who was buying houses in the early 1900s, late 1800s, and those may come with a lot of continuous repairs or updates because they’re just such old properties. Or, would you rather buy something new and that’s more turnkey? There’s a lot of factors to look at when you’re analyzing a market. I think that it’s 100% doable to go ahead and invest out of the area that you live in. There’s millions of people doing it every day.
Go into to the Bigger Pockets forums and just ask people, “Who is the first person you connected with in a market to start on your team?” It’s most likely going to be maybe a real estate agent, or a handyman, or a property manager that can help you through the process. That’s going to be a crucial part of it is finding your boots on the ground too to build that team for this.
Let’s bring on Ashley Hamilton though, who’s actually going to have a lot to say towards this question, too. I think we’ll provide a lot of valuable information for you guys. Ashley, welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us here at BPCON. We’re super excited to have you. You have one of the most amazing episodes on the Bigger Pockets OG Podcast, and you were just recently back on again with that podcast. For anyone who doesn’t know who you are, please tell a little bit about yourself and how you got started in real estate.

Ashley Hamilton:
Absolutely. My name is Ashley Hamilton from Detroit, Michigan, as if nobody knows, right? Because it’s always blasted everywhere. I really got my start I feel like in a very common way, where a lot of real estate professionals are people that want to get started in real estate where they’re at. Obviously a lot of us don’t have a six figure job or corporate America or a rich family we can borrow money to, so I was one of those people that really had to get in really creative. I literally started purchasing real estate using my tax return. I was fortunate enough to be in a market that was more affordable and easy to get into, where if I took a big risk because I didn’t know anything, if I did have a loss or make a mistake, it would’ve been easier to bounce back from because the capital requirements were so low. I chose Detroit as my market, and I started using my tax return to purchase properties.

Tony:
That’s amazing. Because most people, they get that tax return, and it’s like, “What are we buying? What are we shopping for?” And instead, you use it as a way to build your financial future. Can you just give us a quick overview of what your portfolio looks like today?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes, absolutely. So today I’m super blessed to be a proud owner of 35 doors. They’re all located in the city of Detroit, but because the capital requirements are so low, I have a ton of deals that I purchase all cash. So I was able to have a lot of equity in my properties, and when I started to leverage that, that helped me almost tripled my portfolio in one year. So I’m at 35 doors right now, and cash is always my number one. There’s no wrong or right way to invest. Some people might invest for appreciation. But I really wanted the cash flow because I really wanted to spend time with my children. So that’s where I’m at right now and I’m excited.

Tony:
A lot of investors, they hear Detroit, they think that, “Is it the right place to invest? Is it the best place to invest?” What has your experience been, and why do you think it might be a good place for new investors to get started?

Ashley Hamilton:
Absolutely. My answer’s always yes, it definitely is. So one thing, I know a lot of people when they talk bad about Detroit, they was like, “Oh, you can buy a property there for $5,000,” and they kind of played it as if it was a negative. So even if I lived in California, if somebody got on the news and said, “You can buy a property for $5,000,” I’m going to instantly do some research.
But yes, it’s a great place to invest. We always had the automotive industry, so the big three auto companies, so they’re still there. Now there’s a lot of tech companies coming there, so that’s really improving. But the best thing about Detroit is it’s still affordable. So even now after the big COVID boom and all that inflation, you can still purchase a property all in for about $80,000, and that property will still generate at least $1,300 to $1,400 a month in rent.
The reason I feel like it’s so important, especially for rookies, is because obviously there’s no rule book or a way to do real estate. So if you are new and you’re just wanting to get started and you want that cash flow, it’s not a situation where if you make a mistake and fail that you could lose your shirt. Obviously nobody wants to lose money, but I’d rather lose a couple thousand than $100,000 or something like that. But again, with Detroit, we’re very cash flow heavy. There’s a lot of demand, and especially in Section 8. So I feel like it’s a great market for rookies to infiltrate because it’s so low risk with the guarantee rents and things like that.

Ashley Kehr:
Let’s walk through that process kind of. So you’re recommending that a rookie investor start out with more affordable housing, so these properties. What are kind of the action steps someone can take to identify a market? Maybe they’re looking at other markets besides Detroit. What are some of the things that you looked for to find these $80,000 houses that were generating that amount of rental income?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes, absolutely. I do have a four step process. But before I go into that, I want to talk to the listeners about, step away from the business a little bit and think about your customer. I feel like as a business owner, even though real estate is a property, it’s still a business, and we kind of go technical. But I always think about my customer. So if you’re servicing an affordable market like Detroit or a lower income market, I’m thinking about who’s going to going to live in this property? So nine times out of 10, it’s going to be a single mother like I was, or a small young family, maybe a husband and wife and one small child.
When I was growing up, my parents always said, “Hey, stay where I can see you. Don’t be running up and down the block, just stay where I can see you.” When I look for a property, the first thing I do is look at the street view. As long as the seven adjacent properties to my subject property is good, that’s one step off my checklist. And again, my logic behind that is the kids, they’re not going to be all the way down the street. So if there is a smaller or a vacant property down the street, as long as the surrounding areas is good, that’s going to be safe for my family, and they’ll have neighbors and things like that.
So number one, when you’re looking in Detroit, the first thing you want to do is look at the street view and try to eliminate properties that have blighted, burnt down, or vacant properties directly next to it. The next thing is you want to check to see what the rental amount is. That’s also going to tell you what the neighborhood supports. On average in Detroit, even the worst houses you can get about a thousand dollars a month. If I’m looking at the average rents, and I do use Bigger Pockets all the time, they have a great rental estimator and it’s really accurate. It’s hard because Detroit normally is not accurate, but I give props to Bigger Pockets for that. So if I can look and see that the rent in that area is going to be $1,000, that’s letting me know it’s a greater area.
Next you want to just check and see, make sure that there’s comps. If you’re going to be all in for $80,000, as long as you can identify one property that’s sold in the last six months for $80,000, that would be the fourth step. After that, I would just reach out to real estate agents, making sure that property managers is readily available in that area.

Ashley Kehr:
That’s great advice, and those four steps you can do in any market.

Ashley Hamilton:
Absolutely.

Ashley Kehr:
So building out your buy box, building out your criteria. If your budget is at $80,000, you’re going to be looking for that. If you have a certain rent to price ratio that you want to meet, then you’re going to look, “Do the rents meet what you’re purchasing the property for?” Then doing the Google Street view, that’s also a great tip, especially if you’re investing out of state and you can’t physically go and drive and actually view these neighborhoods to do that. So that’s awesome.
After you’ve identified the neighborhood you want to be in, what kind of happens next when you’re ready to make an offer on a property? Are most of your deals through the MLS?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yeah, so to be honest, I feel like I’ve been an investor that’s capitalized on the people saying what you can’t do. So you can’t find good deals on the MLS. During my one explosive year where I purchase 11 properties, nine of them were straight off the MLS. I don’t know if it was people weren’t checking there, the flippers weren’t, if that’s how. So for sure you can use MLS, but I’m a firm believer in networking, especially with wholesalers. And if you are really savvy, or if you’re really interested in really exponential growth and profit, really look at properties that need a little work. Doesn’t have to be a full rehab, but if you’re willing to do the work, that’s going to force the appreciation and give you a bigger outcome, especially in a city like Detroit. Because if it’s 90% complete, obviously there’s not going to be any savings on the offer. So for sure, that would be a couple things that I would look for as well.

Ashley Kehr:
Okay. So then what’s your process after you’ve put the offer in and you’re under contract? Are you doing inspections on these properties?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yeah. So to be honest, for sure, I always recommend that every investor get an inspection, but my philosophy is I buy neighborhoods, so just always considering my customer. And just also, if you pick a market, you want to know the statistics. So in Michigan, I know that there’s 30,000 voucher holders that don’t have a place to live because there’s a housing shortage. So I know, okay, great, that could be a market I can service with a Section 8 and guaranteed rent, so that’s why I’m putting my mind in the consumer again. Once I buy the property, I start to look at and analyze properties similar to that to make sure that I’m doing repairs that’s going to make a Section 8 tenant want the property and feel lucky for it. Sorry.

Ashley Kehr:
With that Section 8, I want to go into this because I don’t think we’ve really talked about this before, is what are some of the things that you do to your properties that’s attractive for somebody with a voucher, or even the housing authority likes to see? Because they kind of walk through, because they do an inspection too of the property, correct?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes, absolutely. So for sure, so to be honest, they do do an inspection, but it’s a really basic inspection. You don’t have to have the nicest property; they just want to make sure that it’s safe. But for me, I want to stand out in my market. I know all the requirements that they ask, and you can easily do that by just reaching out to your local agencies. But I like to go a step over and beyond, because my philosophy is cash flow helps you quit your job, and tenant turnovers kills cash flow. So my goal is to eliminate tenant turnovers. So I know that if every property in my neighborhood is Section 8 and they just have the basic Formica Home Depot countertops, I might go in there and put a granite in there. I might spend $1,400 more, but I have a tenant that’s going to stay three more years, and that’s guaranteed rent. Those are some of the things that I do now.
And then also the cheapest way, if you guys don’t want to commit to the granite, there is these faucets at Home Depot. They’re literally $60. You can also get them on Amazon. And literally when you turn them on, it lights up. I run all the kids when I’m doing a showing to the bathroom and show them that. That $60 faucet has literally made so many Section 8 people pick my properties over other, and it’s not even that expensive.
When you think, always think of the consumer in mind. And me being someone that was on Section 8 when I was younger, and I saw how people treated me and my family. We had the basic minimum. We were never excited to show people our homes. I really want my tenants, whether it’s Section 8 or not, to be excited to show people their homes. And again, that’s going to make them want to stay longer and keeping my cash flow alive. So that’s just some philosophies and a quick cheap tip. Like I said, it doesn’t have to be the granite of $1,400. It can be a $60 faucet that you can put in there that really make an impact and really help your rentals occupy.

Tony:
Ashley, you talked a little bit about your experience as someone who lived in subsidized housing and some of the, I guess, stigma, or maybe the mindset the landlords had about their tenants. I think that is something that happens for a lot of new investors is that there is a stigma around investing in Section 8 or in lower income neighborhoods. Have you found any of those misconceptions to be true or those ideas to be true? Or maybe, what challenges have you seen, and how have you overcome those?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yeah, absolutely. I haven’t found any of those to be true, because I truly believe that no matter if you make a $100,000 a year or $100,000,000, or $10,000 a year, because I’ve probably been a little bit of both of those, you’re still human. At the end of the day, I’ve had people that work at making $100,000 a year at a factory that won’t pay me rent at all. So it’s really the judgment of character, and just giving people the benefit of the doubt. So for sure, even if you’re having Section 8, a lot of landlords, they’ll skim on their criteria or their screening process because they’re thinking it’s the guaranteed rent, and they just overlook that there was already red flags. So now when they get the tenant, they’re like, “Oh, these tenants are bad. All Section 8 is bad.” But no, you didn’t do your proper screening because you just automatically assumed now that would’ve just happened regardless if it was the government assistant or a regular paying.
It’s definitely important to do screening no matter where your tenant is coming from. Just some of my obstacles, again, it’s just showing that my prospects that, “Hey, I’m human. I’ve been there before.” I think that really resonates with them and let them support me more, and kind of remove me from the big old evil landlord like I guess some people would think of it, because they know I’ve been there before and things like that. So that’s really helped me.
But again, I feel like just kind of removing the business like straight and narrow, and being understanding and say, “Hey, listen, I know you’re a single mother, but don’t worry. If you stay here three or four years, I have connections with a great realtor, and maybe I can refer you to a home buying program.” So letting them know that, “Hey, as long as the communication is good, I’m here to help you,” that really has helped me in my journey as well.

Tony:
Yeah, I think it’s kind of an unfair characterization to say just because someone makes less money that they’re less of a qualified person to rent your property, right?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes.

Tony:
A lot of times, someone on a voucher program, Section 8 or otherwise, they might be your best tenants because they know that there’s a long line of people waiting behind them to get that unit. So it’s like, “If I know if I disrespect this place, or if I’m not a good tenant and I lose this voucher, where am I going to go?” They’re almost incentivized to be your best tenants because of the value that comes along with that voucher program.

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes, absolutely. I agree. And they stay longer too, typically. And especially if it’s a nice place where they’re just bragging to their whole family they never want to leave. I feel like also what I’ve noticed is the nicer I make my rentals and the care that I show, the tenants reciprocate that as well. I mean, some of my tenants have better grasp than me. They’re hiring companies, and I’m like, “Wow.” But they saw the care and respect that I put into the property, and they see me grinding and in the business. They reciprocate that with the property.

Tony:
You talked a little bit about your screening process. Can you elaborate on what that looks like?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes, absolutely. This just is based off experience; obviously every market is a little different. But early on what I would get, the people that worked at the Big Three and the automotive that I just thought, “Oh, they’re so successful.” They would come in and they were the worst payers. I don’t always just shoot for the income situation. My number one criteria is previous rental history. I feel like if you’ve been renting a property for five years and you move into my properties, chances are you’re going to continue to do right. If you don’t have that rental history, that’s when I kind of look deeper into your credit to try to build up that, see how your payment history is. But my number one is previous rental history. Obviously you want to make sure they can afford it because you’ll be doing them a disservice just as much as yourself if every dime they get has to go to rent. I also make sure that their income is three times the rent amount. And then also, I really don’t like people that had evictions in the last three years.
That’s typically my biggest criteria. So no evictions in the last three years, must make three times the rent in income, and have previous rental history. Now, if it’s a Section 8 tenant, then the income aspect, it’ll just be three times whatever your allotment is. Some people, their rent might be $1,600, but they’re only paying $300. So as long as they make $900 a month, then that would be a good candidate.
But if you all can notice, I didn’t really say credit. And again, obviously if you don’t have rental history, then I look at the credit. But I do realize that even though credit is good, but if these people had a 700 credit score, a perfect employment history, they’ll probably be buying a house. They wouldn’t be looking. So I always wanted to be a little bit lenient on people who didn’t have the best credit, but as long as they have demonstrated positive pay history with their previous landlords, that’s the biggest referral I can get.

Ashley Kehr:
What kind of software are you using, if any, to manage these properties?

Ashley Hamilton:
Yeah, so if I told you guys what I do, you all would think I’m a crazy person. I’m definitely blessed. I’m hoping to be able to use software and stuff, but it slows me down. So to be honest, I’ve been running my businesses on spreadsheets. But for the last six months, I have been using Building, the property management software. I’m going to sit here and say it live publicly. Don’t use spreadsheets, just invest. It took so much time to set it up. I’m not going to lie, it did take three weeks of me really getting in there. But now that it’s going, it’s literally the best thing. If it’s just one or two units, you can do it on spreadsheets, but I highly recommend you using a property management software.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, I was in the same boat too. With anything really, my businesses, I waited too long to implement it.

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes.

Ashley Kehr:
Do it now while you’re a rookie investor, and put it in place and build your systems up. You can change them as you move along, but starting from the beginning, instead of when you have, how many doors do you have now?

Ashley Hamilton:
35.

Ashley Kehr:
Yeah, trying to onboard 35 units does take a long time and it’s time consuming.

Ashley Hamilton:
Yes, for sure.

Ashley Kehr:
What last piece of advice do you have for us for rookie investors? What would be your number one thing?

Ashley Hamilton:
I know it maybe sound cliche or maybe something that you guys would never thought, but to be honest, it’s really getting crystal clear on what you want. I can’t say that enough. I know it seems easy, but it’s really important. Because I’ll get people that call me up and say, “Hey, I want to be an investor. I want to quit my job in three years, so show me how to flip properties.” That right there says you’re clearly not clear on what you want. Because even though I love flipping, flipping is not a means to quit your job, right? Because you are using that $40,000 in profit, which really turns into $30,000 once you have to pay Uncle Sam that everybody forgets about. That profit, you’re going to use that to sustain your life. So just really getting crystal clear.
Now, maybe you do want to be a flipper, and that’s totally fine because you’ll get the experience. But if you want to quit your job, you’re going to want to look for cash flow. I feel like that’s the number one thing, is getting crystal clear on what you want. Because a lot of us think like, “Oh, we want a hundred doors,” or, “We want 20 units.” But if that’s not your goal and your goal is just to quit your job and have a better cash flow, then that’s probably what you want to go after.

Ashley Kehr:
Ashley, thank you so much for joining us. Can you let everyone know where they can reach out to you and find out some more information about you?

Ashley Hamilton:
Absolutely. They can reach me on Instagram at @Detroit_Investor. I share tips and show a lot of my rehabs right there, and truly just here to help and give back. I’ve been so grateful for the Bigger Pockets family and literally just this whole community. I’m so passionate about giving back because you can do this, guys. It doesn’t have to be complicated. It really is simple. You just want to figure out what you really want and find people that are doing it. Shoot them a DM, right? Instagram is so good. Or just social media in general, because you have opportunities to DM and email your mentors and people that you might want to seek guidance from. Instagram is definitely the best place, @Detroit_Investor.

Ashley Kehr:
Well, thank you so much for joining us live from BPCON. I’m Ashley @wealthfromrentals. He’s Tony @TonyJRobinson. Thank you guys so much for listening, and we’ll be back on Wednesday with a guest.

Speaker 4:
(Singing).