September 2023

Businesses in rural communities typically fall under the radar of growth-equity investors. “Traditional sources of venture capital don’t go to these markets,” says Melissa Obegi, president of impact investor Conduit Capital, U.S. “They often stick with a more tried-and-true footprint.”

That’s why RuralWorks Partners was formed. Launched last year by Community Development Financial Institution (CDFI) Community Reinvestment Fund, USA and Conduit, it aims to build wealth and economic and climate resilience in rural communities, along with the number and quality of jobs, by investing in growth-stage businesses with the potential to expand. “These companies are starved for the capital critical to bringing their full potential to bear on community resilience and job creation,” says Obegi, who is also a board member of RuralWorks.

In August, it launched its first fund, RuralWorks Impact Partners 1.

A Focus on Agribusiness and Food

In 2021, the folks at CRF and Conduit started mulling over a possible collaboration that could address the dearth of financing in rural communities, providing a way to improve local economies and expand the use of climate-smart agricultural practices. What was needed, they decided, was money that could allow agribusiness and food industry businesses to thrive and grow. Investments of $1 million to $5 million would target such areas as sustainable and regenerative agriculture, local and regional food systems and circular economy, to name a few examples. And the enterprise would also provide other services, like business advice and access to markets.

Last year, they received certification for RuralWorks as a Rural Business Investment Company (RBIC), a USDA program that licenses for-profit developmental capital funds. The move allowed the enterprise to raise equity from the farm credit system.

A three-person management team runs RuralWorks. There’s also a four-person board and an advisory council with experts in rural innovation, consumer and food businesses and private equity and blended finance.

Building a Pipeline

As for investments, since launching their fund—the size has not been disclosed—they’ve been evaluating potential targets. “We’re building a robust pipeline of opportunities and preparing to deploy capital,” says Obegi. While the primary focus is businesses operating in the Northeast, the Great Lakes region and Upper Midwest, RuralWorks also considers investments anywhere in the country.

Tech companies are likely to be in the mix. “We’re very interested in the kinds of technological developments that are being created in rural communities,” says Obegi. To that end, RuralWorks works with organizations like the Center on Rural Innovation, which promotes rural regional technology hubs, for deal sourcing. Plus, thanks to the rise of remote work, Obegi sees the potential for more talent to relocate to rural areas. In addition, a federal government focus on rolling out rural broadband should improve web access.

“It’s an example of the kinds of collaborations across non-traditional parties that address fundamental systemic and critical challenges we face,” says Obegi. “We can contribute to a blueprint for a rural renaissance.”

Ashley:
This is Real Estate Rookie Episode 326.

Nate:
As soon as I say cold calling, most people just kind of shut down. “I’m never going to do that, I can’t do that.” I promise you, you can. With your skill level, with your own unique personality, you absolutely can do this. But I think it’s a matter of managing your expectations, and I think that’s where a lot of people get gummed up. So I’ll tell you what I say and what I do, and then maybe we could dive a little bit deeper on this.

Ashley:
My name is Ashley Kehr, and I’m here with my co-host Tony J Robinson.

Tony:
And welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast, where every week, twice a week, we bring you the inspiration, motivation, and stories you need to hear to kickstart your investing journey. And rookies, do we have an episode for you guys today? If you have ever thought to yourself, “Where can I find really good deals? How can I do that with the least amount of money possible?” Nate Robbins, our guest for today, is going to answer that question for you. Now, Nate’s a friend of both Ashley and I, he’s one of the biggest characters I think I know in the world of real estate investing. He’s always got a smile on his face, always making people laugh. But don’t let his kind of boyish charm fool you, Nate is an absolute beast when it comes to finding good off market deals.

Ashley:
You know what? That’s so funny because that exactly describes [inaudible 00:01:14] his boyish charm. And yeah, so we bring Nate on today and we talk about how he actually got started in real estate, gives you a little background of that. And it was a very unique situation, and how he took advantage of this opportunity presented to him.
Then we’re going to go into how to source a deal, how to find a deal. And Nate will walk you through the two different paths as to how he finds addresses or gets the houses that he wants to go after. And we break down exactly what you should say on the phone, exactly what you should do when you’re at a seller appointment, step-by-step instructions. As you’re listening to this, I want you to write down notes of what Nate is going to say. And kind of develop your own plan to follow this along, and just try it out.
Pick up the phone, make a phone call, go door knocking, but Nate does a really great job of describing in detail a step-by-step list for you to go and do exactly what he’s doing.
Nate Robbins, welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast.

Nate:
It’s the honor of my life, I love you guys. And your audience doesn’t know how lucky they are to have you in their lives.

Ashley:
Well, thank you, that was a very nice compliment. But today we are here to shower you with love and admiration on your real estate investing journey. So Nate, why don’t you start off telling everyone a little bit about yourself, and then how you got started in real estate.

Nate:
Yeah, so back in 2016, I was working for a bank. I’d been working at a bank for about five years, I was a private client banker. And I’ll be honest, I really should not be where I am today. There’s just no logical reason way that I am where I am today. And so I was working at the bank back in 2016, and I was actually hitting kind of a midlife crisis. I was very frustrated with my work, frustrated with life. And I got off a very frustrating phone call with a client and I hung up, and I just see this random guy standing in the lobby. And not wanting to make any more phone calls, I just get up out of my desk. I wasn’t necessarily supposed to pull the clients from the lobby. Walked over to this guy and I said, “Hey man, how can I help you?” And he goes, “Well, I need to open a business account.” And I was like, “No problem, I can help with that.”
And so I brought him over to my desk, [inaudible 00:03:47] chatting with this guy and I’m like, “Dude, you’re a really cool guy. What do you do?” And he goes, “Well, I’m in real estate.” I was like, “Oh, that’s cool, I’ve always been interested in real estate.” And I bought Carleton Sheets when I was 18, trying to… Your audience wouldn’t even know who Carleton Sheets is.

Ashley:
I don’t know who that is.

Tony:
You don’t know Carleton Sheets, Ashley?

Ashley:
No, no.

Tony:
So I don’t know, I was a really weird kid, I would stay up late during the summer months. And late at night when you don’t have really good cable packages, all you see is infomercials.

Ashley:
Mm-hmm.

Tony:
And every single night Carleton Sheets had an infomercial running for this at-home kind of package that taught you how to buy real estate with no money down.

Nate:
Yeah.

Tony:
Anyway, he was one of the big real estate info marketers back in the day.

Nate:
He’s the original guru kind of thing, he sold the program and then he’d get you in your loop and he’d sell you more programs and stuff. And so yeah, it’s kind of funny. Hey, actually Tony, if you want, I’ll send you the tapes, you could listen to him again if you want.

Tony:
My dad actually had a copy, I was in his garage a decade ago and found [inaudible 00:04:51] and Sheets’ tapes also.

Nate:
It actually has some pretty good stuff in it. It’s pretty basic, but it’s really good stuff. And I’m like, “Oh, okay, cool.” Yeah, it’s nice, but-

Ashley:
Okay Nate, you don’t need to give us your affiliate link now, back to you.

Nate:
So I’ve actually signed up, but-

Ashley:
Sign up under me.

Nate:
Yeah. I can promote my Amway business also? So anyway, that one conversation with that business account ended up being a conversation with who you guys know, Tarl Yarber. I don’t know if your audience would know who he is, but was one of the most successful real estate flippers up here in the Seattle Pacific Northwest market. And so he’s like, “Well, hey, let’s grab coffee and a lunch.” And so that turned into about a two or three month conversation. And then after about three months, he said, “Hey, I’m willing to offer you a 90-day contract to come work with me.” And so I had to make the choice of, do I stay at a safe job at the bank? Or do I take a chance on a 90-day contract to go and maybe succeed or fail at real estate? And so thankfully, the fear of not knowing what would happen was greater than the fear of being safe or the need for security. And so I took the chance and it’s been an absolute wild, wild ride ever since.

Ashley:
In that moment when you were looking at, okay, 90 days, what happens after 90 days? Are you the type of person that’s like, “Worst case scenario, this is what I can do.” Did you think you could go back to your other job? Maybe if somebody listening is given that same opportunity, what’s your advice on ways that they can take that chance and kind of shift their mindset to leaping into something that may only be 90 days and not continue on?

Nate:
Yeah. Well, I got to the point, and again, I was kind of in a existential crisis a little bit in my life. And so I got to a place… Because it was a big deal, I was on a fairly successful track with my job, I had a plan, a 10-year plan. And I got to the point of saying, or I had this image of saying, “Well, I’m on my deathbed.” It was kind of future casting. I’m on my deathbed, I’m always going to wonder what if? And the fear of… I had to see, I had to know what if? What if it did succeed? What if I did make it? What if this was my chance? And I had to know even if I failed. And so I kind of hedged my bets where I left gracefully, I left kind of on an extended timeline to help my manager out. So I knew that I could always come back if I failed, but I had to know.
And so I think sometimes it’s easy to play it safe, but on your deathbed when you’re dying and you’re about to take your last breath, are you going to be glad you took the chance? Or are you going to be glad you played it safe? And I think most people… And I’m sure you guys see a lot of these same motivational things. Most people on their deathbed when they interview these people on their last moments, it’s not taking the chance, it’s not taking the risk and taking the opportunity. And so for me, I had to see what happened down this path. And yeah, I would encourage other people too, it’s man, take the chance, see what happens.

Tony:
Nate, I just want to ask, you’re talking about taking this chance, but you worked in a bank, but were you in the mortgage department? Did you have any type of real estate experience prior taking this big bet on yourself I guess?

Nate:
No, none.

Ashley:
So why would Tarl want you? What were the things that you thought… What did he see? Besides how handsome you are, what are some other qualities that he looked for?

Nate:
Have you seen this hair?

Tony:
I was just about to say, man, and how perfectly quaffed that [inaudible 00:08:56].

Nate:
It’s almost as good as yours, Tony. It’s almost as good. Yeah, well, I think obviously, I have a real hard time talking to people. I don’t have any kind of personality and I stutter a lot. So those were some of the hindrances I had, but I think I owe a lot to Tarl for where I am at today. And I think what he saw… And he’s very good at this as well, when he sees potential in somebody, he’s really open to taking a chance on that person. And so I think it was probably pretty obvious that I was miserable, and I think from our conversations together he saw somebody that was really miserable, had a lot more potential and was stuck in a place that wasn’t that great for him.
And so Tarl saw that in me, and I think just doing what I do because my strong suit really is building relationships with people, it’s communicating, it’s getting to know somebody, it’s building rapport. And so my job within the bank was as a private client banker, so I was dealing with high net worth clients. I had no real estate background, I really didn’t have anything as far as real estate was concerned to bring to the table. But my personality, my ability to communicate and talk to people, that really I think is what kind of opened the door for me to work with Tarl.

Tony:
Nate, just I want to go back really quickly to something that you mentioned about the whole laying on your deathbed thing. And I think there’s a lot of value and you used a phrase future casting in that way. And there’s a book I’m reading right now, it’s called The Good Life, and it’s by two doctors, Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz. But basically it was this longitudinal study where they followed hundreds of people over multiple decades. From the time they were 18 until they were in their 80s, and they passed away. And they even followed on with their kids and their grandchildren. So just crazy amount of data and it just goes into hey, what are the key factors of actually living a good life based on this really long comprehensive study? And a lot of it was kind of tied into what you said about taking some of those risks. And kind of surrounding yourself with people that you really get energy from. As opposed to being in an environment where you’ve got a bunch of energy vampires that are kind of pulling life out of you.
So I just wanted to plug that book, I’m 30% through it, I’ve already really enjoyed it. But The Good Life by Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz, if you guys are looking for a good read on that.

Nate:
Yeah, I think you bring up a very interesting point that I’m still learning. And I think at least in my life, there’s a tipping point where I’ll be in a situation or I’ll be in a job, well, not a job anymore, but I’ll be in a situation where it no longer feels life-giving, it’s an energy drain on me. And I think it’s very challenging to want to pursue safety and security over having the integrity to say, “Hey, this is no longer really helping me, it’s killing me.” And trying to make active changes. Because the reality is we’re not trees, we can move, we can make changes, and we can make those things, right? So when you realize that those things are starting to happen to you, maybe it’s a relationship, maybe it’s a job, maybe it’s something, you have the ability to make changes to improve that situation and find that vein of, “Hey, this is giving me life, this is now exciting, this is good for me, this is getting me to where I need to go.”
So just being aware of that, and I’m still learning that as well, but okay, now I need a change, let’s start working that.

Tony:
One more plug, because I said the word book. And anytime we say the word book on this podcast, Ashley and I now have to plug the Real Estate Partnerships book with Ashley and I co-authored. If you head over to biggerpockets.com/partnerships, you guys can pick up a copy of that book. But now anytime the word book or partnership is mentioned on this podcast, we have to plug the Real Estate Partnerships book.

Nate:
Okay, well, we’re going to plug that a couple more times then.

Ashley:
Pretty soon anytime the word real estate is said, I’m plugging it. So tell me, Nate, what kind of investing do you like to do?

Nate:
Well, actually after that whole thing with Tarl, I don’t actually do real estate anymore.

Ashley:
Oh, real estate, so we have this [inaudible 00:13:14]. Let’s talk about when you made that transition. You’re leaving your bank job and you’re going to work for Tarl, what were some of the things that you were doing for this job? What was the actual position?

Nate:
So this is a little bit funny, and I’ll do the [inaudible 00:13:31]. Tarl, when he hired me he was looking to replicate himself. He wanted to kind of get a step away from the business, run the business and just replicate himself. And we could probably talk about this as well, but I left the bank with a very much of W2 mentality. And Tarl was looking for somebody with more of a independent, I’m going to go figure this out and get it done. So the first two weeks I’m just sitting in the car with him like, “All right man, tell me what to do. I have no idea anything about anything, just tell me what to do.” And after about a month of that, he was starting to get pretty frustrated. And so if you talk to him ever, you’ll find out I was on my way to getting fired actually. And then we went to a Jocko Conference down in San Diego and that reframed some of his thinking, and so anyway, I got a second chance.
But what was apparent is that my strong suit and my skillset wasn’t really around the detailed operations of managing a project. Now, I can do that, but I wasn’t the skill match for Tarl. And so what it became apparent is that I’m much more stronger suited or my skillset is really in building relationships and that type of thing. And so the role that I kind of fell into or I kind of got more focused on was acquisitions. So networking with wholesalers, going direct to seller and that kind of the wholesale aspect of the business. And so just again, kind of Tarl realizing, “Hey, you’re better suited over here, not what I originally planned. So let’s move you over here and get you kind of in a better role.” And so that was kind of how I kind of fell into this whole acquisitions, door knocking, cold calling, deal finding, all that kind of good stuff.

Ashley:
That is such a real thing, the W2 mentality. And it’s also part of who you are too as far as your DiSC profile and things like that as to how you perceive the world. But being you just want to be told how to do something and you can master it instead of having to figure it out. And then there’s other people that want to figure it out and can figure it out. But that was something I struggled with too with one of my business partners, he came from the W2 world. And everything was handed to him as to, “Here’s what you have to do.” And he would just go and do it. And then it was on to the next thing of [inaudible 00:15:57] what you had to do. And there was never really a lot of decision making or even scheduling yourself or any kind of task management because everything was just given right to you.
And I think making that transition is really hard. Honestly, I think it took him a year. Now he oversees all of the maintenance for my property management company. And it is boom, boom, boom, everything is just done, he just takes action on it. But if he was doing that a year and a half ago, I literally would’ve had to sit down with him, “Okay, here’s this work order, this is what you have to do. Now let’s schedule it for this day and this time. Now go ahead and text her, tell her you’re going to be here at this time this day.”

Nate:
Yeah.

Ashley:
But now he can just go and figure it out, but that is such a big thing. So what are some of the things that you did to kind of get out of that? Because I feel you obviously haven’t stayed stuck in that W2 mentality. I can seriously doubt Tarl is still telling you exactly what to do every day.

Nate:
Well, it’s actually funny because now I’d say about 8, 12 months ago, we’ve kind of stopped doing real estate up here in the Pacific Northwest. So we work together on other aspects of that, and so if I did have any W2 mentality a year ago, it’s definitely gone now because it’s now 100% dependent on me, right? And so I’m looking, I’m trying to think back to my mentality on this kind of stuff, and I think it’s when you really, really want it bad enough, you will figure it out. People want the easy road, they want the easy five steps to make a million dollars. And that information exists except for… What did I see? Hold on, I have to read this quote today. And I posted this, right? It was like, “Building a real estate business is simple, knowing what to do is simple. Executing on what to do is hard, being consistent is hard, delayed gratification is hard, being persistent is hard.”
And so I think it’s just one of these things that it’s not wrong to have a W2 mentality, but it can be hard to succeed. And so you have to have this mentality of, “I am going to succeed, I’m not going to quit. I want this and I’m not going to wait for somebody else to come kind of spoonfeed me. I have to go get it and I’m going to go get it.” And so I don’t know if that was clear, but that’s kind my thought process on that.

Tony:
You kind of said it yourself that no one’s going to spoonfeed you, you have to go get it, Nate. So once you and Tarl had that realization of the detailed operational management isn’t kind of speaking to your natural genius, it’s more so the relationship side. What did that onboarding experience look like? How did you figure out what you should be doing every day? Or what was the effective way to go out? And just even I guess just taking them one step back, if you can first just define kind of what your new goal was after you guys have kind of decided, “Okay, here’s the role for Nate.” What was the end result you were looking for? And then how did you go about teaching yourself how to do that?

Nate:
Yeah, so one of the advantage… Now, I have to be very clear, I had an extreme advantage working with someone like Tarl, because it gave me a lot of things. It gave me access to a lot of high level people that normally a lot of people starting out don’t get, so that was an advantage. He put me in the room with a lot of very successful guys that I could pick their brain and kind of learn from their systems and stuff like that. And so that was a huge advantage. I think with social media and things like that, people today, even if you’re starting out, you can still kind of get the help that you need, but it was really nice having that kind of thing.
Now, the thing that was a challenge was that there was no onboarding process. There was no “Hey, this is how you wholesale.” It was more like, “Hey, go talk to this person and figure it out.” And so even though I had these connections, I made a lot of stupid mistakes. Which we could talk about if you want, because I’m sure your audience would love to hear about dumb things that happened, but I know I do.

Ashley:
I would love to hear about what that process has turned into for you because that was part of a lot of value that you bring. And you’ve helped me a ton with this, is how to actually talk to people to sell their property, and what those kind of processes are. So do you want to start from the very beginning of how you’re even finding a house, how you’re then finding the seller and kind of go from there?

Nate:
Well, first off, Tony, did I answer your question? Did I get to that?

Tony:
Yeah.

Nate:
Okay.

Tony:
I think the only other thing I’d add is just the goal of what it is, right? Tarl brought you in because he had a business of flipping homes. And in order to profitably flip homes, you have to buy properties at a discount in comparison to what you’ll be able to sell them for. So if I’m hearing you correctly, Nate, the role that you were then slotted to fill was to help Tarl find those undervalued properties. Am I hearing that correctly?

Nate:
Correct. And that came through, it could be a number of different ways like networking with other wholesalers myself doing that, agents. It was just I just need to bring in, I think it was about two to three deals a month is what I needed to bring in to the business.

Ashley:
Okay, let’s start with that of how are you even finding the deals you’re bringing them in? I want to create a step-by-step process so everyone listening can go ahead and write this down, make their own little checklist and kind of do exactly what you do, because you are so great at it. So first thing, how to find houses, go ahead.

Nate:
Yeah, well, thank you for that kind word. I will say there’s two tracks, right? There’s the people… And we could go deep on this if you want because this is where I’m probably most passionate about. You have the people that don’t have a lot of disposable income, and they’re going to have to bootstrap it. And they’re just going to have to get after it until they can make some additional income. And so on that vein, so we have the, “I have to just get after it.” Because they don’t have a lot of capital invest. There’s a couple of things that I would say. Number one, is I would download the Driving For Dollars App. And if people aren’t familiar with Driving For Dollars, it’s basically where you drive around neighborhoods and you’re looking for dilapidated houses, tarps on the roof, boarded up windows, overgrown lawns, vacant houses, missing power meters, things like that.
And so if you don’t have a lot of money to invest, and there’s other apps that can do this, I just prefer… because I’m friends with Tucker Merrihew. I don’t get any kickbacks from this, although, Tucker you should sponsor me. But I would download the Driving For Dollars App, and then over a weekend I would drive around median priced houses in a neighborhood that you’re relatively familiar with or a town or a city you’re familiar with. And I would drive up and down every single street and I would create a list of at least a thousand houses over a weekend. And so if you live in a place like Portland, you could do that in a couple of hours.

Ashley:
So what are you looking for when you’re looking at these properties? What was some of your kind of criteria?

Nate:
So I kind of mentioned before, if the house is vacant, if you’ve got boards on the windows, if you’ve got tarps on the roof, if it’s overgrown and with a bunch of vacant nasty cars in the thing, any signs of distress really. With this one, sometimes you can be a little bit liberal on it, you just have no idea who’s willing to have a conversation, but any signs of distress. Pro-tip, actually drive down the alleys. I don’t know in most cities, but ours, we have kind of back alleys that drive between two streets of houses. Sometimes that gives you a different perspective where the house looks good on the front, and you go down the alley and all of a sudden there’s a, “Oh, this is absolutely really bad.” So you can mark the house down, but any signs of distress, just mark it down.
And so what the Driving For Dollars App will allow you to do is you can just drive with the map open or the app open. You can drop a pin on the house and you can just kind of track your progress on what streets you’re going up and down. And I would just continue to build that list. Ideally, you want to build that list of 5, 7, 10,000, depending on your market and depending on how hard you want to go.

Tony:
Just one clarifying question.

Nate:
Mm-hmm.

Tony:
So Nate, I want to give some context to the rookies that are listening because you just said you want to get this list to not 500, but 5 or 10,000. First, how much time do you think it would take for someone to get to a list of that size, Driving For Dollars? And just like cumulatively, how much time do they have to spend driving? And then why does the list need to be so big? Because I think some people have this misconception around the volume that you need to be able to source markets off deals. So how much time? And why that volume?

Nate:
So I would say a couple of things on that. Number one, you don’t have to have 5 to 10,000 to start. If you were a brand new person, if one of your listeners is a brand new person, sat in front of me. And they’re like, “I want to get my very first deal.” I would say, “Download this app, and then go create a list of 200. Start with 200, and tell me your top 20 worst houses that you found, that are vacant. For sure there’s nobody in there and they’re really, really bad.” And so I would start, you don’t have to have that number, but if you’re going to build a business and actually grow this to continually source off market stuff, basically you want a larger list. And the reason you want that is… And I’ve seen this a lot with a lot of newer people, is that they’ll find 100 houses, and they’ll market to that, but they won’t get any calls.
Well, your section of people, it’s too small. And you just need a larger group to actually try and generate consistent leads. And so if you have 5, 6, 10,000 houses that you’re marketing to, well, then the deals will start… you’re going to get more deals that way, essentially.

Tony:
And I think just one thing to call out is that sellers’ timelines don’t always match with when you’re marketing to them. And this is, I kid you guys not, when I first started investing in real estate back in, I think it was summer of 2019. I sent out a bunch of mailers to Shreveport, Louisiana, where I was investing at the time. I got a call last week from someone on one of those mailers and he said, “Hey, I wasn’t ready to sell when I got your mailer, but I’m ready to sell today.” That was almost four and a half, five years ago that I sent those mailers out and someone’s calling me today. So I think it just goes to show that you’ve got to start planting those seeds, and then over time they all start to kind of sprout up.

Ashley:
Tony, are we going to have another story about another house in Louisiana?

Tony:
No, I didn’t even call them back. I didn’t even call them back, I’m not going back there.

Nate:
Give me the lead, I’ll deal with it. I got you.

Ashley:
Yeah, yeah, give it to [inaudible 00:26:53]. So as far as, okay, you have your list, you have the property address, right?

Nate:
Yep.

Ashley:
Are you finding other information? What’s happening once you’ve started to build this list of addresses?

Nate:
Yeah, so what I would say, again, if you have no money and you’re bootstrapping it and you’re just starting out. What I’d say is once you get to 200, I’d start taking action. Now, the Driving For Dollars App, and I know there’s other apps that will… DealMachine I think is one other one, they’ll give you a little bit of the seller’s information. Seller data is probably one of the most challenging aspects of off-market stuff, because you’re not always getting the right stuff. Most skip tracing services are probably 70% accurate. And so I probably spend a little bit too much on this, but I have three other programs that I pay every month to have access to.
And so yeah, these would be the ones I use. And you don’t have to spend all this money on these, but if you’re going to do this longterm it might be worth it. I have Whitepages, and I think that’s 60 bucks a quarter, so 20 bucks a month, I think. REISkip, you pay per skip on that one, so you put in 50 bucks and then it’ll last you until you’re done.

Ashley:
Nate, what’s a skip?

Nate:
Oh.

Tony:
Yeah.

Ashley:
You pay per skip, what’s a skip?

Nate:
Oh, good question. So basically Whitepages… let me give you this and I’ll explain all that. So I’ve used Whitepages, REISkip and People Finder PRO, and then Driving For Dollars. And so what this does is this allows you to look up the homeowner’s information, and get a bunch of emails, phone numbers and potentially mailing addresses. And so between the Driving For Dollars App, Whitepages, REISkip and People Finder PRO, I generally can find a phone number for the seller. And so if you were again, sitting in front of me, I’d say, “Once you have a list of 200, you have your top 20 worst ones. I would not think about it too much, look up, even get a piece of paper out, write it down, your seller leads, write down all their phone numbers, and then just pick up the phone and you call.”

Tony:
So you mentioned a few pieces of software, but you didn’t mention PropStream. Which I feel is a super popular one for a lot of wholesalers that I know. Is there a reason why you’re not using that software?

Nate:
I use PropStream when I’m pulling lists and stuff like that.

Tony:
Mm-hmm.

Nate:
So I do use PropStream, there’s nothing against it, it’s just for the initial find on things… I have nothing against PropStream, I use them. This is just kind of how I kind of started, and I’ve just kind of got stuck in my ways. And so this is not the only way. This is not the only way.

Tony:
Yeah.

Ashley:
Okay, so now you’ve got your list. So you gave us the example of Driving For Dollars, and actually looking at the properties. But then you mentioned sometimes you do use PropStream to actually pull lists without doing the Driving For Dollars. So when you go into PropStream, they have the filters. So what are some of the filters that you are using to kind of find the properties for you?

Nate:
Okay, so I think if I were to break this down in my mind, and maybe for your listeners, I would say that if you have a little bit of money to invest in pulling a list and hiring a professional company, then I might use PropStream. And then there’s two thoughts within this. One, you can do just try and get the cream of the crop off the top of a market. And then you can really dive in deep and then try and stack your lists. And so what that means is if you find multiple pain points on a property, that’s going to give you a better chance of maybe having a conversation, maybe having them want to sell. So what do I mean by that? I mean that if you have a house that’s vacant, that’s out of state owned, they have a code violation and they’re tax delinquent, right? Let’s imagine those are all the problems. And you can filter for that on PropStream.
Basically that seems like a great motivation for somebody that doesn’t live there, it’s vacant, it’s got problems, it’s got taxes backing up. That seems like it’d be a great motivation, so you can spend the money to then pull these lists, stack them together, and then you can call them. But that’s going to cost you a little bit of money. Or if you want to do, I’m doing some general marketing, trying to see if I can pull some easy stuff off the top of a market. So I’m actually just starting this down in Arizona, is I just pulled a tired landlord list, right? So right now just with everything, I just pulled a list and that’s an actual subtitle on PropStream. And so you can just go down from the suggested list.
Yeah, it’s just tired landlords, and so I pulled the area that I wanted to be in. And I just pulled that list, it was about 5,000. And so then I sent it over to my skip tracing company, which I just got a new one. And then I sent it over to my marketing people and we’re now marketing to that, so we’ll see what happens. Did that make sense, kind of the two thoughts there? You can go just general kind of broad spectrum over a market, or you can go real deep on a market and by stacking lists and stacking pain points.

Tony:
And I also just want to shout out, right? So as an alternative to PropStream with some of the data that Nate’s called out here. BiggerPockets also has a partnership with Invelo, that’s I-N-V-E-L-O. And Invelo also allows you to pull a lot of that kind of owner data that you’ll get from some of these other sources.

Ashley:
As a pro member, you get a $50 credit. So if you are already a pro member, go and spend that $50. And if you’re not a pro member, you can sign up at biggerpockets.com/pro

Nate:
Sweet.

Ashley:
So Nate, okay, you have your list created, you went and you either were Driving For Dollars and got some addresses, or you were going on your software and looking up properties. So now that you have your list together of addresses and now you’ve used your tools like Whitepages, things like that to find the phone numbers of the people who may own this property. When you make the call, what do you say?

Nate:
Ooh. Now, again, I’m going to preface this with saying, I’m very comfortable doing this. When I was a kid, just to give you a backstory, it’s funny how things kind of come full circle. I mowed lawns to make a living, and to make money my junior high and high school days. And so I would literally door knock people and go do this. I’m like, “Here, I’m door knocking again, it’s like I can’t get away from it.”
So this is something that I’m very comfortable doing. And something that I think everybody can do, but I think it’s a matter of managing your expectations, and I think that’s where a lot of people get gummed up. So I’ll tell you what I say and what I do, and then maybe we could dive a little bit deeper on this because as soon as I say cold calling, most people just shut down, or door knocking, shut down. “Oh, I’m never going to do that, I can’t do that.” I promise you, you can. And with your skillset, with your skill level, with your own unique personality, you absolutely can do this.

Ashley:
Real quick, part of the reason we are doing this episode today is because Nate flew out to Buffalo to visit me. And we’re driving from getting chai tea, and he sees the house with papers in the window like it might be vacant, whatever.

Nate:
Signs.

Ashley:
Pulls it up, finds a relative of the person that died in that house, and they’re five minutes from my house. And he is like, “I’m going to drive over there and knock on their door, see if they want to sell it.” I was like, “Okay, you and Daryl go, I going to just stay here. I don’t want to go do that, that makes me scared and nervous.” So part of this episode that we’re having is for me to become better at cold calling, cold knocking-

Nate:
Yeah, cool.

Ashley:
… door knocking.

Nate:
Next time I come out you’ll come with, you’ll be fine.

Ashley:
I’ll have to do it, yeah. He’ll wait in the car and make me go.

Nate:
And she was the nicest lady. So I think honestly, and we could talk about some resources and books that’ll help people with this, but I keep it very, very simple. So when I’m cold calling and we could role play. Who wants to role play?

Ashley:
Go ahead, Tony.

Tony:
Yeah, I’ll be the landlord here.

Nate:
Okay, cool. So let me just preface this and say that the only objective that I have for this very first call is going to be, “Are you open to an offer?” That’s the only thing I need to figure out. One of the pitfalls that I see with people is that sometimes they’ll see a vacant house and they’ll begin to fantasize about how amazing this house is, all the money that I’m going to make when they… And then they find out that they’re not even wanting to sell, that you can’t find a good working number. And so you begin to get way down the road. All you need to do for this very first conversation is just figure out, “Are you open to an offer?” All right. So this is how the conversation would go, and then we can kind of break it down. So ring, ring.

Tony:
Hello.

Nate:
Hi, is Tony there?

Tony:
Yeah, who is this?

Nate:
Tony, hey, yeah, my name is Nate Robbins, I’m really sorry to call you out of the blue like this. The reason for the call is I’m in the process of trying to buy a house here in Tacoma, and I noticed your house over on Main Street. It is probably a long shot, but-

Tony:
Look, I get calls like this all day. How did you get my phone number?

Nate:
You know what, Tony? I totally get that. I’m sorry, it is kind of a random call like this. So basically I drove by your house over on Main Street, homeowner information is public record. I use a program called Whitepages, it was actually a book when I was a kid. And I just looked up your own information and thought I’d give you a call. [inaudible 00:36:15] old school like that, I’d rather talk to you face-to-face, versus just sending you a letter. And so I don’t know, I’m just curious if there’s any chance you might be open to considering an offer on the house.

Tony:
Well, I get calls like this all day, Nate, so what’s your number?

Nate:
You know what? That’s a great question. Well, Tony, I’ve only ever driven past the house one time and I’m assuming you’re probably like me. I’ve been on the receiving end of low ball offers, and low ball offers are very offensive to me, and I don’t want to do that to you. And so I don’t actually have enough information to really make you a fair offer. So it sounds like you might be open to actually looking at an offer if it was a fair price.

Tony:
Yeah, I think I’d be open to that.

Nate:
Okay. Yeah, great. Well, how I make sure… I’d like to ask you a couple of quick questions right now if I can have 30 seconds. And then what I’d really like to do is then find a time to actually walk the property. I’d love to actually meet you in person, so you know I’m a real person. But would it be possible to walk it maybe this Friday? Are you going to be around?

Tony:
Yeah. All right, that’s pretty good, Nate. I feel like I threw some curveballs at you, man, and you handled those pretty well.

Nate:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:37:24] I’ve done this before.

Tony:
Because I’ve done a very, very few cold calls before trying to source my own deals. And it’s always like, “Who are you? How’d you get my number? I don’t want a low ball offer, the property’s perfect.” But you’ve kind of got a way to handle all of those objections it sounds like.

Nate:
So I don’t know if there’s a best way to do this, I have a couple of things I could give your audience. Number one, I can give you my script, which is I’m happy to do. And then I also have a worksheet that has… really, there’s six objections you are going to encounter if you cold call or door knock. And one of those is, how’d you get my number? What’s your offer? There’s some basic ones you’re going to come in contact quite a bit.

Ashley:
Okay. Yeah, Nate, we can put those into the show notes, it’ll be at biggerpockets.com/blog/rookie-326. Or you can also send Nate a DM on Instagram, and I’m sure you give him your phone number and your address, so he can cold call you, he would definitely give you a script.

Nate:
Yeah. Well, before we go too far on this, I would say you might get a seller that’s like Tony. They’ll just immediately, “What are you doing?” Or you are going to get people that are getting a lot of calls or getting a lot of mail, you will do that. Most people, however, if you are normal on the phone, are very normal. And so there’s a couple key things. Number one, again, managing your expectations like, “I’m only there to see if you’re open to an offer, if not, no big deal.” And this goes back to our original point of saying, why do you have 5,000 houses on your list? Or even if you have 500, right? It doesn’t matter if you tell me, no. It doesn’t matter because I have 499 other people I got to call. So you have that kind of thing, but when you call though, you have seven seconds to get to this line. And Ashley’s heard me talk about this before and she’s posted about it, is the reason for the call, right? You have to get to that, because you’re calling these people out of the blue.
And once you get to that line, it kind of allows you to get past their wall, right? It gets you kind of behind their immediate rejection. “Hi Mr. Seller, my name’s Nate, sorry to call you out of the blue. The reason for the call is I’m trying to buy a house, I’m trying to buy a rental.” Whatever your motivation or your goal is for your investing. And then, “I’m just curious if you’re open to an offer.” Again, yes or no. And then you might have to handle a couple of objections, which is totally fine. And I play off the, “Well, how’d you get my information?” I play it off like it’s no big deal. It’s no big deal, this is not a big deal.
“Oh, I looked it up, homeowner information’s public record.” “Cool, cool.” And then I always make a joke about Whitepages used to be a book. I’m like, “Oh, back when I was a kid, it was a book. Now it’s online, I just looked you up.” And then I just give that reason, then I don’t know if you noticed what I did is I immediately went on to say, “Do you think you might be open to considering an offer?” It’s almost like you just went past it, I didn’t even care. You do care, but you’re just kind of scooting past it, right? If that makes sense.

Tony:
Mm-hmm.

Nate:
And then he might bring up another objection. “Well, let’s just talk about it.” And then, “Okay, so it sounds like you might be open to an offer.” So you’re just kind of pushing the conversation forward. And then basically if they say, “Yes, yeah, I’d be open to an offer.” “Hey Mr. Seller, my process is because I don’t want to offend you with a low ball offer. I don’t want to offend you.” Most people don’t want to be offended. “Let me walk the house so I can make sure I make a fair offer.” And then that allows you to then kind of go to the next step of actually creating a good offer. And then if you’re going to wholesale it, if you’re going to buy it yourself, it allows you to put accurate numbers together to make the deal happen. So if they say yes, then I’m shooting for the appointment, I want to see the house.

Ashley:
So are you trying to set the appointment right then and there on that phone call too?

Nate:
Absolutely, no and yes.

Ashley:
Okay.

Nate:
Yeah, if they said no, I might toy with them a little bit, but if they say yes, I’m going to say, “Hey, cool, great.” I’m going to ask them a couple of questions about the house to sound like I’m intelligent, like I know what I’m doing.

Ashley:
Well, can you give us a couple of those questions?

Nate:
I’ll give [inaudible 00:41:41]. Yeah, no, no, no, no. I’m gatekeeping that one. No, but it’s, “Hey, have you made any repairs on the property in the last five years?” “Great, okay.” “How much do you owe on the property?” “Cool.” If they say free and clear, that allows me to think of some, “Oh, maybe there’s a creative option.” “If the right offer came across the table, what would be your ideal timeline? Do you want to sell it?” Because some people are like, “I need to [inaudible 00:42:08] this in two weeks.” Some people are like, “Oh, I have six months.” “Okay, cool.” That allows you to kind of gauge what’s important to them. And I always throw this one in. Now, some people are not going to be very comfortable doing this, but I always try and do it. I’m going to say, “Hey, do you have an ideal price range? It sounds like you’ve had…”
So if Tony, we got past all the objections, and we’re having a conversation, I would say, “So Tony, it sounds like you’ve been approached quite a bit. Do you have an ideal price in mind for what you’d like to get for the property?” And I kind of throw it out super casual, just to see if I can get a number from them. Or if they’re like, “Oh no, I haven’t really thought about it.” And I was like, “okay, cool, but have you thought of maybe a range of where you need to be?” And I try and get a range, because if they’re like, “Oh, well, I need $500 million.” Well, I’m like, “Is that for real?” Because I can always make a joke about it, like, “Hey, listen, I totally would give that to you, but my money people, they don’t let me make that decision, I have to back up my offer.”
But if they’re adamant, like, “Give me $5 million or I’m never selling.” And the most that these houses are selling for are half a million dollars. Okay, “Hey, Mr. Seller, we’re probably not on the same page. I’d love to put a real offer together if you’re serious, but if you’re really stuck at $5 million, I’m not going to be the guy for you.” And sometimes you can break past that by just saying that, but sometimes it’s that’s their number, they’re so sick of people reaching out. “Okay, thank you for your time, have a good day.” And I move on.

Tony:
Nate, so once you kind of go through the conversation and say you find… I guess first let me just ask one clarifying question. How many conversations do you typically need to have to book one appointment? Do you have a ballpark that people-

Nate:
Yes, great question. And this is again, kind of even setting expectations in your mind. I’m not going to speak for anybody else, I’ll speak for myself. There’s been times where I’ve found a house, and I fall in love with this house. It’s so nasty, it’s so vacant, it’s so… hell, my heart-

Ashley:
Smelly.

Nate:
Smelly, you can smell it from the street. And you start thinking about how amazing this deal’s going to be. And then nothing comes of it, right? You can’t find the seller, or they’re not going to sell, whatever reason. In your mind, this is the statistic, based on your skill level, it could be better or worse. But what you need to have in your mind is for every 100 contacts you make, actual conversations, it could be a [inaudible 00:44:36], it could be via email, whatever. For every 100 contacts, you should get one deal. So it kind of translates a hundred contacts, maybe you get 10 appointments, one deal, something like that. That’s not an exact science, but that will help you kind of break down the daily activity that you should have to do to try and get a deal.
So again, if you were sitting in front of me and we were having a conversation, I would say, “You have a list of 200, okay? You’re going to call these people, you’re going to make 100 contacts, 10 appointments, one deal.” That means to break it down super simple, you have to make five contacts every single day, Monday through Friday. You don’t even have to work the weekends, right? Five contacts, Monday through Friday, that should equate to one deal. Now that’s going to depend some on your skill level and different things like that. But I would expect that you would have one deal in the pipeline, one deal under contract, one deal ready to go. Now, if you want two deals a month, well, maybe you need to make 200 contacts in a month. So on and so forth, right?

Tony:
Nate, how are you keeping track of this communication with these sellers? Are you using a CRM? Or are you just kind of keeping track of it in a Google spreadsheet? Or just are you [inaudible 00:45:51] and just it’s all in your mind? How are you keeping track of it there?

Nate:
No, if you know me at all, it’s not safe in here, I’ll forget. Let’s just say there’s been a number of times where I’ve written down something on a paper, and then I found that paper months later and I was like, “Oh, I forgot to put that in Podio, and then I missed that deal.” So for me to manage my deal flow, I’m using Podio for my CRM, so…

Ashley:
What are some other ones that people can use too?

Nate:
Okay, look, if you’re super cheap, just use Google Sheets, something, write it down. What do they say? A short pencil is better than a long memory. So the idea is to write it down and track it. And then the other thing that I have to do for me is because I am a visual person. And so what I’ll do is as soon as I’m done with a seller call, if I have an appointment or a follow-up, I put it in my calendar in my phone so that it comes up like, hey, make sure to follow up with Mr. Smith. Follow up with Tony, he can meet on Friday at 3 o’clock. And so I immediately put that in my calendar, then I’ll put my notes in Podio. And then also track it through there, but yeah, I know there’s a bunch of different ones out there, but Podio is just the one I kind of fell into early on and I’m stuck with it, so…

Ashley:
Okay, cool. And kind of to wrap all of this up, when you do go to the showing, what are some of the most important pieces of information you want at the showing?

Nate:
Yeah, so whether you’re going to wholesale the property or whether you’re going to do it for yourself. And this is something that Tarl… one of the major lessons that I learned. And so even if you’re flipping houses and you’re listening to this, when I show up to the property, my several objectives, one of them being is that I will take 80 to 120 photos of the property. So I will do wide angle photos, I’ll start from the street, and I’ll walk all the way around the property. Then I’ll start at the front door, walk left to right throughout the house. And I’m getting detailed photos of the entire thing. And then I’m taking pictures of the quality of the roof, the water heater, the electrical panel. If I can sneak in the foundation, I’ll take pictures under there. I’m not crawling under there, but I’ll at least take pictures underneath.
I’m paying attention to noting if there’s slants on certain parts of the house. I’ll get under the sinks and take pictures of the plumbing, any of these big ticket items. And so this allows you to do two things. One of the biggest frustrations, because I worked with a lot of wholesalers. One of the biggest frustrations I had as someone trying to buy properties from wholesalers is they would send me three pictures of the house and an address. I’m like, “Hey, do you want this house?” “I don’t know, maybe.” But if you were to, I’ll tell you this right now, you’ll be the rockstar wholesaler in your market if you send a hundred photos.

Ashley:
Not even for wholesaling though, Nate, even just for your own information to put together an accurate offer, to put together your scope of work. And estimate what your rehab is going to be.

Nate:
Yes.

Ashley:
[inaudible 00:49:11] you can go back and you look at the pictures, you can look at the video instead of having to remember like, “Wait, how many windows were on the house now? I think there was two in the front, two in the back.” I’m like, “Okay, well, I’m going to need 10 windows. Here’s what my cost will be.”

Nate:
Exactly, exactly. So two points, so I’ll say, so a typical wholesale package for me is a hundred photos. I’ll sketch a very basic floor plan, I’ll put in some comps and I’ll put in the stats of the property and I’ll send it out. I’m like, “Hey, here’s what I’m thinking. Here’s the major list of things you’re going to have to do.” I don’t necessarily price that out, I have an idea of how much that’ll cost, but everybody’s prices are different. And so I send a package together. And so if you do that for wholesaling a property, man, you’re going to be light years ahead, you’ll get you faster answers as well.
And then to your point, Ashley, is a lot of times I’d be walking these properties for us to buy them. And so it allowed us to do a better scope of work. Or if you’re new and you’re like, “Hey, I don’t even know what this is going to cost.” If you have 150 or 80 to 120 really good photos, you could go to a contractor and say, “Hey, I’ll give you a hundred bucks. Can you sit down with me and tell me how much this is going to cost to do all this stuff?” And it’s going to allow you then to kind of put your scope of work together. It’s very easy, especially if you’re doing a lot of appointments and you’re getting houses mixed up. “Was the electrical panel good on that one?” Or, “Where is…” Oh, man, it’s really easy to get mixed up. So taking that and that allows you then to be more effective if you’re going to buy it as well.
Because the last thing you want to do is, “Oh, hey Mr. Seller, can I meet you at the property again?” And sometimes they’re cool with it, sometimes not, but that allows you to do that a little bit more effectively.

Tony:
Well, Nate, such a wealth of information brother, and I always love when we can deep dive a topic like this because not only is it instructional for the rookie audience, but I feel like Ashley and I always learn a lot when we kind of go through these deep dives as well, man. So I appreciate you pouring into the rookie audience. Before we let you go, got to pick your brain just a tad bit more, and I want to take us to the rookie request line. So for all of our rookies that are listening, if you want to get your question featured on the podcast, head over to biggerpockets.com/reply and we just might use your question for the episode. So Nate, are you ready for today’s rookie reply?

Nate:
I’m so ready.

Tony:
All right, so today’s question comes from Steven Cobb. Steven says, “Hey, I’m in the Dallas, Texas area. I’ve been out Driving For Dollars, and I have a list of about 30 or 40 houses. I’ve already looked up owners and numbers on the county website. Question, when I call the owners, how will I know how much I should offer them? I don’t even know the bedroom square footage of the property or what needs to be repaired. How can I run comps to come up with an ARV so that I know what number to offer even though I don’t have all of this info?” So Nate, what would your advice be to Steven?

Nate:
Steven, great question. Two things. One, Drive For Dollars more, get a bigger list. Two, to answer your question, this is why I always set the appointment. So there’s some things you can do, you can look up the basic square footage, bed, bath count, garage, lot size of a property. And then you can run comps generally on that, you can get a general idea of a range of maybe what that property’s worth. But you’re not going to be effective, I would say, as effective without going and walking the property. So it sounds like you have the hesitation of like, “Well, what do I offer?” Well, do you have enough information? And so that’s why when I call, if they’re open to an offer, I want to then set the appointment. So then I can go and walk the property, take my a 100 photos or so, and then go back and run a proper analysis.
You can do a rough range based on the stats, but I would say set the appointment, walk the property, dial back your expectations. Be like, “Hey, Mr. Seller, I don’t have enough information to make you a fair offer, right? So how I avoid making a low ball offer and offending you is I want to walk the property. Let me walk it, let’s do that, meet you, say hi, and then give me 24 to 48 hours and I’ll get you an offer then.”

Ashley:
Nate, thank you so much for all of your information today and taking the time to come on the episode. I know you’re sick of me and Tony all the time, so I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do this.

Nate:
No, I’m coming to the BiggerPockets Conference just to hang out with you guys.

Ashley:
Well, Tony won’t be there, but-

Nate:
Tony.

Ashley:
He’s having his baby.

Tony:
I’m MIA this year.

Ashley:
Yeah, he’s having his baby.

Tony:
Yeah, the baby’s due I think the week before BP Con, so we will be phoning it in this year, and then we’ll have Baby Robinson at a BP Con 2024.

Nate:
Yes, let’s go. Let’s go.

Ashley:
So Nate, you’ll just have to fill in as Tony for the conference.

Nate:
Done, I will wear my-

Ashley:
Practice his signature, so you can sign some books.

Tony:
Yeah.

Nate:
I’m going to wear my-

Ashley:
Black shirts.

Nate:
… my black shirts and my black shorts, we’ll be good.

Ashley:
Well, Nate, where can everyone find out some more information about you and reach out to you?

Nate:
Yeah, probably Instagram is probably the thing that I’m trying to do the most. So it’s N, the number 8, Robbins, R-O-B-B-I-N-S. And then, like I said, I’ll send you the scripting and stuff. But if people want the script or if they want the objections, I need to see if I can scan that and upload that. If they want to send me a DM, I’m be happy to send that over to them as well.

Ashley:
Okay, awesome. Well, thank you so much Nate, and we will put those documents in the show notes, go on to biggerpockets.com/blog/rookie-326. Or you could just DM Nate on Instagram @n8robbins.

Nate:
Could you say that one more time please?

Tony:
Where do we need to go Ashley? [inaudible 00:55:04].

Ashley:
Everyone knows the dash is I meant horizontal [inaudible 00:55:06] dash, hyphen. Well, Nate, thank you so much for joining us today, I’m Ashley @wealthfromrentals, and he’s Tony at @tonyjrobinson. And we’ll be back on Wednesday with another guest.

Coldwell Banker Realty’s Anna Fine joins ‘Power Lunch’ to discuss the rebounding of the San Jose real estate market, the relationship between the stock market and its buyers, and more.

OpenAI, the creators of the generative AI ChatGPT announced on X this week that two new features have been added to the program.

Firstly, ChatGPT is no longer limited to data before September 2021. It can now surf the internet to provide users with up-to-date results.

This function is currently only open to Plus and Enterprise (paid subscription) users but will be rolled out for all users soon.

Secondly, over the next couple of weeks, ChatGPT Plus users can present images and speak to the program. The program will be able to talk back.

Whilst OpenAI has suggested using these features to help plan a vacation or settle a dinner table debate, this latest evolution is a game changer for small business owners and entrepreneurs.

What Does This Mean For Entrepreneurs?

The browsing function can be used for;

• Researching current SEO keywords. ChatGPT can then write blogs to help a business increase its search engine rankings.
• Asking specific questions about consumers to help with the latest market research.
• Gaining current insights on industry regulations and compliance requirements.
• Generating content for websites and social media that is more in tune with current trends and industry information.

The see, hear and speak functions can be used for;

• Analyzing or simplifying graphs to help with understanding data for both leaders and other members of staff.
• Creative ideation with the program that doesn’t rely on the written word and therefore will expand possibilities. For some, speaking and listening is more effective than reading and writing.
• More accessible planning, research and content generation.
• Practical problem solving. For example, a manufacturer could take an image of a technical issue on a machine and as well as upload this image, could describe the issue. ChatGPT can then help advise,

Whilst these features promise more efficiency and organization, it’s important to be mindful of misinformation that could be embedded in the results from ChatGPT.

However, it is undeniable that tech-minded entrepreneurs will gain leverage in the world of business because of these updates.

Dave:
Hey everyone, welcome to On The Market. I’m your host Dave Meyer. Joined today by Kathy, James and Henry. Henry, you probably have the most exciting story, so tell everyone where you are right now.

Henry:
Yeah, I’m in Maui. I’m here for work though. It’s not a fun trip. I’m going to work extremely hard while I’m here.

Kathy:
I’m not sure I believe you or not. It’s not a fun trip.

Henry:
I’ll work one day during the trip.

Dave:
Out of how many though?

Henry:
Well, I mean, I mean out of 10, but still it’s going to be work.

Dave:
Yeah, still a write-off, right? If you work one out of 10 days.

Henry:
The IRS has entered the chat. No, I am only writing off what is absolutely necessary. Dave Meyer, I will not be in excess with my write-offs. Tax guy listening.

Dave:
Well, I was going to say have fun, but I guess don’t have any fun and work very hard on your trip to Maui.
James, you’re clearly not on a boat. Where are you?

James:
I’m out in Hilton Head, South Carolina checking out houses. Completely awesome. A little bit blown away by how nice it is.

Dave:
Are you moving?

James:
Don’t know yet. Well, you know what, Dave? I’m constantly on the move, so I don’t know. I can’t ever settle.

Henry:
I have seen you and or heard of you looking to buy a house in three parts of the country in the last six months. I literally was there when you were looking at houses in Phoenix and now you’re in South Carolina. Before it was, where was it, Wilmington? I mean everybody needs James Dainard problems. I’m serious. This is my theme for the entire show.

James:
Itchy fingers.

Dave:
Henry, how nice do you think the houses are each place is?

Henry:
Oh, I saw one of the ones in Phoenix and it was a house, is a gross understatement. That was more like a compound slash castle. I didn’t want to go inside. I felt like if I walk in the door, I just had to pay a thousand dollars. I don’t know to what? I just felt like I needed to put it somewhere in the house.

Dave:
It was just a cover at James’s house to enter.

James:
Well, I highly recommend people check Hilton Head out. It’s a beautiful, beautiful place.

Dave:
Kathy, you seem at home, but your house is so nice you don’t have to leave.

Kathy:
I’m home. I’m so happy to be home. I love it.

Dave:
All right, well I’m glad to hear it. All right, well we have a great show for everyone today. We’re going to be talking about deals that all three of you are actually doing in today’s market. Everyone knows that this has been a challenging and confusing year, but deals are out there for sure and Henry, Kathy and James are going to share with you some of the deals that they are working on right now.
Before we get into that, we are going to test your knowledge with a game that uncovers how much you know about home buyers right now. And I think this is a really good data set for us to look at because at least, I don’t know if you guys encounter these people, but everyone’s like, “Who can afford to buy a house right now in this market?” Or, “Who’s actually still participating in this market?” And today we are going to see how well you actually know the answer to that.
All right, what is the average age of a home seller? Henry, let’s start with you.

Henry:
Oh, average age of a home seller. I’m going to go 37.

Dave:
Okay. James?

James:
I sell a lot of houses, so I’m going to go my age 40. Maybe, I’m hoping I can, I’m bringing the median into there. So 40 is what I’m going with.

Dave:
All right, Kathy?

Kathy:
I’ll say 42 because they’ve got more kids and they need more space.

Dave:
Well, despite this being a trick question, because there are actually no home sellers this year, they did give us an answer, which was 60. 60.

James:
What?

Dave:
Boomers are selling.

Kathy:
Oh, wow.

Dave:
Yeah. 60 is the median age of home sellers. That’s crazy. Wow.

Henry:
Because they can sell the home they bought for $20,000 for 486 million?

Dave:
Yes, exactly. Yeah, it’s just pure profit. All right, for our last question, this is an interesting one. Where did most home buyers find their home purchase? So how did they identify the home that they wanted to buy? And I should mention all of this comes from NAR, all of this data. So some answers just so you know, are like the internet, through an agent, a yard sign. What is the most common way to find a home these days?

Kathy:
Internet.

Dave:
All right, James?

James:
I mean, it’s got to be the internet. Everybody is addicted to Redfin and Zillow, so I feel pretty confident it’s going to be that.

Dave:
Absolutely. Henry?

Henry:
You have to be right. Yeah, it can’t be anything else.

Dave:
All right. You are correct. I had to give you guys an easy one. Kailyn, give me an option of a couple.

Kathy:
Thank you.

Dave:
And I just picked the one that I knew none of you could get wrong. Well, thank you as always for playing. We are now going to take a break and then move on to our conversation about the deals that you all are doing.
Welcome back to On The Market. We are going to now talk about deals that everyone is doing right now. Henry, I’d love to start with you. Tell me a little bit about a project of interest that you’re working on right now.

Henry:
Well, first and foremost, I love doing these shows because we’re often telling people, “You need to be investing no matter the market.” And so we actually get to show that we’re actually doing this, and so, one that’s great.
Two, I really appreciate you, Dave, for letting me go first because my deals always seem so humbling in front of these multimillion dollar deals that these other people do, and so thank you for not putting my tiny deal behind James or Kathy’s multi-million dollar operation. It makes me feel so much better.

Dave:
You’re welcome.

Henry:
Yeah, man. I like being the small town guy and so the deal I’m presenting is a flip deal, it’s a single family flip. We are purchasing it for $200,000. The renovation budget is somewhere between 15 and 25 depending on what we decided to do with it. I think we landed somewhere right around 20,000 on the renovation and it is selling for 310,000 right now.
What I like about this deal for this market, is the market is telling us right now, that you’re going to get paid for doing flips because houses are still valued very high and people still are trying to get or wanting to get those 2022 numbers, and in some cases they are. And so with interest rates being so high, it’s difficult to cashflow some of these single family deals.
It’s much easier, or I should say it’s much less difficult to cashflow multifamily deals, but when you’ve got a single family deal, it’s hard to make that a rental. Sometimes it’s even hard to make it a short-term rental and make the cashflow make sense with the high interest rates. And so this is a great deal for this market for a couple of reasons.
One, it is a light renovation, meaning it’s less than $40,000. It’s cosmetic. We’re putting paint on the walls, we’re updating the flooring, granite countertops, putting a backsplash in. We’re only updating one of the bathroom showers, the other one is fine the way it is. It’s in a working class neighborhood where a lot of people need to and want to live. And so I know there’s demand there to live in that neighborhood. There’s schools around it. It’s close to the interstate so you can get anywhere fairly quickly, but because it’s a light renovation, that means two things.
One, I can get the job done fairly quickly. And two, it saves me a ton of money because interest rates are high and the cost of money is high. And so the less time I can hold something, the better for me. And so doing a hundred thousand dollars renovation, sure you can get to bigger profits that way, but you’re going to eat up a lot of your profits and holding costs, when you’re doing those big renovations.
And so this one, I can turn it around fairly quickly. We’re selling it for 310 and so we should net somewhere between 60 and $70,000 for doing $25,000 worth of work. I’ll do those all day long, so doesn’t make sense to hold this one. I couldn’t rent it for what I’ll be all in for, but I’m fairly confident in being able to sell it because of the location and it’s going to save me money on the renovation time.

James:
Lipstick flip. I love that deal. And that’s a huge, I mean it doesn’t matter the size of the deals, it’s about what is your annualized return in the cash on cash. That is a great deal.
Henry, how are you leveraging that deal too? Are you A, do you need a loan? B… I like the loan to value on that for sure, but how are you, how much cash are you going to have in that deal? 60 grand on a cosmetic deal is a great, I mean that’s a great hit, especially in that market.
In our metro markets, we can’t get those returns on cosmetic deals at that price point. If we’re buying a cosmetic deal, 200 grand in, we’re going to be a 15% return, maybe 25, 30% with leverage. But it’s in and out really quick. So what kind of leverage are you stacking on that and what’s your going to be, your annualized return?

Henry:
Yeah. We use a private money on this one. 11% interest, interest only payments. I put $5,000 down to buy the deal and they’re covering purchase and renovation. So I’m five grand out of pocket in order for me to turn around and sell this thing in 90 days, well probably close to 120 days.

Kathy:
I wanted to piggyback on what James said, and that is the size of the deal doesn’t matter. I do mean when we do bigger deals and when I explain mine, you’ll know what I’m talking about. There’s more staff you need, so there’s more overhead and in the end it may turn out that your deals are making more. So keep that in mind.

James:
Anytime you can hit 13X on your money in a short run of window, that’s a home run.

Kathy:
Yeah. That’s a home run.

Henry:
Yeah. No, I love deals like this and I think people need to be more open to looking for deals like this. I think what happens with new investors is they do too much, right? Somebody might see this deal and try to spend 50, 60 grand on the renovation because they want to tear all the kitchen cabinets out and put new kitchen cabinets in.
They want to tear down a wall and redesign the kitchen and relocate it, right? They see what’s happening on flip shows on TV and they think that that’s what you need to do to sell a house. We didn’t tear any walls out in this house. We didn’t tear out the kitchen cabinets. We just took the cabinet drops off, put granite in, put new appliances in.
Now, the one value add I wanted to mention that we did in this place for flips, I always look for how can I add value under roof without spending a ton of money. And so for this property, the previous owner converted part of the garage into interior living space, but they didn’t take the time to vent the HVAC into that new room. And so it wasn’t included in the heated and cooled square footage and they didn’t do it right. So the flooring was still sloped, like a garage floor might be sloped.
And so we went into that room, tore up the flooring, leveled out the flooring, and then put new flooring in and then took the HVAC, invented it into that room, and we have it staged as like an office or a game room. And so we were able to now add square footage to that room. So instead of selling this house for 275, 285, we’re selling it for 310 because we added square footage, heated and cooled square footage into that room.

James:
Henry, I know there’s probably no magic formula, but how do you personally decide how much to take on in a project like this? I know you said that you want to do it quickly and get in and get out, but how do you know when enough is enough?

Henry:
Looking at the comps? And so we’ll always look at the comps in the neighborhood to see what’s sold recently and what was done to those comps in order for them to sell. And in this neighborhood, most of the comps were either lightly renovated or not renovated at all, in selling for top dollar. And so we figured if we could do a light renovation, make it stand out above those and not be all in a ton of money, then we would be in a good position. So the best way is you got to look at what your competition is doing.
My agent will typically tell me, he’ll say, “Hey, I’ll sell this one for you for $325,000, but you got to do everything.” And he’ll send me the comp, so I can see what got to do everything means. Or he’ll say, “Hey, you can do a really light renovation here.” And he’ll send me the comp. So we look at everything that’s selling around us to know what we’re going to do.

James:
Yeah. And another thing to also look at, and I love what Henry said is flipping is not art.

Henry:
It’s math.

James:
Some of our clients, they really do enjoy the process. They’re like, “I’m okay making less money, because I want to put this together.” And that’s fine, that’s what you should do as an investor. But what it comes down to is math. What do the comps say? But then also what is your annualized return?
A big mistake a lot of flippers make is they go for the higher profit, but it takes double as long and you can make less profit but make more money because you’re turning your money so fast. And so, one thing I always like to do on the cosmetic is, what’s the annualized return? Small profit is okay, if you’re getting your money in and out really quick.

Dave:
All right, well with that, let’s move on to Kathy because I think she is the opposite of a deal that you get out of quickly. Kathy, tell us what you’re working on.

Kathy:
Well, this is a great market, contrary to what some people think. This is the time that we’re able to find deals again that we couldn’t over the last five years of boom or even longer. I started doing entitlement projects in 2009 when land was super cheap, then land prices went up and they’re still up, but we’re back to doing a deal that I haven’t been able to do for a while, which is entitlement, entitlement only.
So what that means is basically changing the use of land, it has to go through the city and you rezone it and it takes a lot of work. It is a lot of political skill there because you’re dealing with the local city council. And for an entitlement deal like this, you really need to have a good idea of whether the current city council is going to like your plan, and if that council is going to be in power for a while, because if all of a sudden it changes from growth to no growth type politicians, then you’re kind of in a bad way. Which is why builders don’t really like doing the entitlement phase.
A builder generally isn’t going to just go in and buy raw land and go through the entitlement process. So if you can do that for them, it’s really, really lucrative. So to give you an idea, again, this is with my partner that I’ve been working with since 2009. He’s a 45-year veteran builder, really understands this stuff. It’s extremely risky. So I would only do an entitlement deal with somebody like my partner who’s done so many and really knows how to negotiate with city council people.
So basically we are buying farmland in Danville, California, which is right outside, I don’t know, 30 minutes outside of San Francisco. It’s amazing that there’s still farmland, raw land there and it’s right off of Crow Canyon and that’s a popular area. Great schools, really high end area. We have a purchase sale agreement for $6 million and an option payment of basically a down payment of 250,000, but we don’t have to close until 2025.
So these are deals that we’ve done many, many times together, where you just have to put the option payment and then you go through this two-year process of getting the entitlements and then you do a double close at the end.
So we are in contract for the 6 million, we only have to put down the 250,000. The rest of the money goes towards the entitlement process and developing the lots once we get those entitlements. And then we sell the lots, which will be about $14 million.
So it’s a huge return for the investors. It’s a 15% preferred for the investors. We haven’t come out with this yet, we’re still working on some details before we do, but we did something similar just in the town down the street in Dublin where we tied up property for, I think we had to bring in about 1.6 million and we sold it for 20 million. The purchase contract was for 10 million, but we ended up selling it for 20 million to Pulte Homes.
So in this case we already have the builder who wants the lots. They’ve already stated what they’ll pay for those lots, which is 850,000. It’s only 16 lots, but this is a very high end area where $850,000 for a lot is normal, but there aren’t any finished lots for this builder to buy and they don’t like taking the entitlement risk.
So it’s not for everybody, because there is risk, a hundred percent. People have to know there’s risk in this deal, but that risk is really lessened because of the amount of experience we have in the area and in this type of thing.

Dave:
So just so I can summarize, it sounds like you are putting down $250,000 for the right to buy this property for 6 million. How much will it cost on top of that to actually do the work of entitlement?

Kathy:
Yeah. So it’d be about 22 months to entitle it. And we have already spoken to the local board, the supervisors and they want more lots. The cities make money when there’s homes that they could get property taxes on. So depending on who’s on the board and if they’re more pro-growth and no growth, they’ve already agreed they like this, the builder’s already agreed. So it is about 2 million in costs and the land is 6 million and we plan to sell it for 14.

Dave:
Whoo! I like those numbers.

James:
I love entitlement deals. We type a lot of lots in Seattle. You get them on terms and the best thing about entitlements is you’re getting them on terms so you don’t have to bring up the cash.
Now, what Kathy’s doing is a large subdivision, which has a huge hit on it, but your end buyer, that builder will pay you a massive premium, because what builders are doing is they’re all about leverage and moving their cash rapidly. If that builder has to come in and park… How much was the lot again, Kathy?

Kathy:
Oh, it’s 14 lots and we’re paying, it will be 14 lots. We’re paying, no, 17 lots and we’re paying 6 million for the land, but we don’t have to close on it. That’s we’re using the leverage, the power of it’s just an option, so we don’t have to close it for two years.

James:
Yeah. And the reason why builders will pay what they’re paying is because if they sit 6 million down, A, it’s hard to get leverage on raw lots right now, but even if they got 50%, they got to come in with $3 million down. That has to sit there for two years and builders want to keep that money working and that’s also, they need it in their accounts for baking purposes and when they can get extra financing out there.
So the entitlement business is great because you tie up, you do all the hard work and they will pay you the absolute premium when that permit is issued in hand, because they can close and start building tomorrow, which is going to really increase the return.
There’s huge, huge money in the entitlement business. We’ve been selling lots for 10 years and it is one of the best businesses out there because it really just comes down to moving paperwork, working with the city and then running a good feasibility.
Kathy, what kind of feasibility are you guys doing on this? Is it like a 30 or 60-day feasibility? What kind of testing are you doing? What are things that you guys are looking out for?

Kathy:
Most of that’s already been done. We do those reports before we bring this to investors.

Henry:
I like these kinds of deals and I’ve heard of other people doing similar deals and I’ve never really gotten into one, until this year because I’m accidentally doing one.
I actually bought a house on a double lot and the house was a tear down and so we ended up tearing it down and I bought it over a year and a half ago. And so back then interest rates were lower and the cost to build was lower back then. And so I bought it. We spent the money to tear the house down and the plan was to redevelop, to rezone the land, to build multifamily on it. And so we went ahead and did the work to change the entitlement so that we could sell.
We were going to build and develop an 8-unit property on that land. And then prices have changed and it costs more to build now and the interest rates keep going up. And so I don’t have the same return I was expecting. And so I was like, “I wonder if a developer would love to buy this.” Because it’s already set up for them to buy it. We have all the approvals, they just need to buy it and start the work.
And so we list, I paid 30 grand for the house, I spent 10 grand tearing the house down and another 15 grand or so doing the work that needs to be done to the land in order to have it ready for the development. And now we’re selling it to a developer for like 170,000. So I’m doing it on a much smaller scale by accident just because I don’t want to do the project, but now I’m thinking, “How many other houses in this neighborhood can I go snag for 30 grand and do this again?”

Kathy:
Yeah. Yeah. So in response to James’ question, I have it in front of me now that the investigation period, we do that before bringing investors in. So that’s the environmental geotech, the base engineering map, biological investigation, the outreach to the city of Danville because that’s the most important. You’ve got to know who you’re dealing with. It really comes down to the city council. They could, it’s just a small group of people who can approve or deny. So that’s probably one of the biggest.

Dave:
All right, sounds like a great deal, Kathy. Eager to hear how that goes two years from now, but it’ll be very interesting to see how this progresses and thanks for bringing a new type of deal. I don’t think we’ve ever talked about entitlement on this show before.

Kathy:
And land is not cheap today. Prices are going up right now because builders recognize that there’s really a need to bring on new supply. So when you can reach out to an owner who maybe isn’t aware of that yet, and work out a deal like this where you don’t actually have to close with all the funds for a little while, it’s a great opportunity, but that opportunity could be slipping because people are becoming more aware that land prices are going up.

Dave:
All right, James, what do you got cooking?

James:
We’re going to talk about density and maximizing your deal. So we actually bought a fix and flip property in North Seattle about five months ago. We’re currently in permits on it right now, and we paid $460,000 for this property. Originally, what we were going to do is put about 110,000 to 125,000 in and sell it for about 7, 750. And then once we started running the numbers on it, we’re going, “Okay, well the flip’s, okay. We’re going to make 50 or about 60 to $70,000 after all costs are said done.” Henry’s deal sounds way better to me than that.
So it was a lot of work for the money, but we liked that buy price of 460. It’s very, very cheap for the area. But as we were looking at it, what’s happened in the city of Seattle is there’s been a lot of upzoning, a lot of affordable housing and they are maximizing density. They eliminated the single family zoning.
And so what that does, that allowed us, we’re sitting on a 6,800 square foot lot and we have a two bedroom, one back house on the front that’s 740 square feet up top, and then we have 740 square feet in the basement. And according to new zoning, after we started looking at this, we then realized, “Okay, well this might highest and best use, might be to get this thing densified.”
So what we are doing is we’re actually turning the single family house into an ADU, which is kind of weird. It’s an 1800 square foot house that will be an ADU. And then we’re building an 1800 square foot single family house that we’re going to attach this flip property with one single wall at that point and we’re going to have an 1800 square foot house. And then we’re also going to build a detached DADU, so a two bedroom, 2.5 bath, a 1200 square foot property.
So by maximizing this, we went from making 60 to $70,000. Now we have a combined value of 2.45 million from the 700 that we thought it was. We’re going to be able to sell the ADU for about 700,000, the detached DADU for about 750 to 800,000, and the single family will sell for about a million to 1,000,050. So instead of flipping the property over a six to nine month period, now it’s going to take us about 18 months, but the profit potential in this deal is going to be roughly about 390 to $450,000, which is going to be an 82% annualized return on that.
So we went from just doing a simple flip on it to maximizing that the density. And that’s been really important in today’s market because there’s lack of deal flow and if there’s a lack of deal flow, you have to look at how do you maximize that deal in an efficient manner.
And so we really kind of stepped, our original plan was just to flip it and then we took a step back and we’re at the middle of permits. In addition to once permits are issued, we always do that as a check-in point when we’re doing these kind of deals. We might do what Henry did and flip it off to a builder too, because typically builders will pay us about 35% of the combined value on this property, which is going to be about $700,000 for this property. So we might be able to make $250,000 just by selling the permitted site. So it’s a very flexible, dense deal. It takes a little bit longer, but the margins are there.

Kathy:
Love it. You just gave me a great idea for a problem property I have.

Henry:
So talk to us about the funding for something like this, James. So obviously your rehab budget is not a rehab budget. It’s a new construction budget now. And so where does the funding for that come from? How much of your own money do you have to put into doing something like this and how long is it? You said it’s tied up for 18 months?

James:
Yeah. And that’s a great question, Henry. So originally we bought it with hard money and we’re paying 12% interest right now on that. We put $75,000 down when we bought the property. So we put a little bit under 20% down when we bought it, and we’re sitting servicing that debt for the next, it’s be about a total permit time of about nine months on that. So we came in with about $70,000 down and then we have to pay about 3,500 to $4,000 a month during that time.
Once permits are issued, then our local construction lender or a local bank will then issue us 85% of the total project costs. So we only have to bring in 15% of the total bill, which is going to be about 460 plus, about 1.35 mil to build that out. So we come in with 15% of that in addition to, we actually have an interest reserve, so we make no more interest payments for the 12 months at that point.
And so that’s how we get to the 82% annualized cash on cash return because our total down payment on this is going to be about 300 grand and we have potential to make 350 to 400, all said and done.

Henry:
So what you’re saying for people who probably aren’t familiar is that deferred interest means once you start the construction period, you don’t have to make any interest payments, so your carrying costs are lower during that construction period or just whatever you’re paying for your utilities. Is that correct?

James:
Correct. Yeah. The bank basically builds that into the loan to value, so we don’t have to make an interest payment or debt cost that entire time.

Henry:
It’s pretty sweet.

James:
Local banks are the key. You got to get good and value.

Henry:
That’s my jam, man.

James:
Yeah.

Kathy:
I love it. And in California, that is one way you can actually make money because there is legislation where cities really can’t turn down an ADU if you were to put a second unit on your property. Still some do, like the town I’m in, still can’t do it, but it is a really great way to increase density, provide more housing, and increase the value. I love it.

James:
Then you want to make sure wherever you’re looking that they allow you to economize them off. In Seattle, we can actually do a condo overlay. Condo each one of those off and sell them separately. Some cities do not allow that, so you do want to research that. With Seattle, once that passed, it just made sense for us to start really exploring that model.

Henry:
Yeah, man. With the density issues doing ADUs and DADUs are becoming much more easier to do. You still have to deal with a lot of the NIMBY folks sometimes, but I mean, it used to be very difficult to get approvals to do things like this, and so now the approvals are easy. It’s just more about how do you structure the funding to be able to pay for some of these things.

James:
And NIMBY, of course, not in my backyard. Yeah, that is so often the case. But again, in California, they did pass a law that I don’t even think nimbyism will stop an ADU unless you’re in a coastal commission area where they override everything and they don’t want too much density near the ocean for, I don’t know, environmental reasons. But if you’re not near the coast, it’s really hard to block an ADU on your land.
So if in California, if you could do something like that in these high-priced markets where you get a house with a large enough lot, you can definitely increase value that way or just keep the property and have two rentals on one.

Henry:
My other question for you, James, was you had mentioned when you were talking about the deal, you were kind of pricing out each individual structure. Does that mean you’re going to sell each structure separately or are you just saying that each structure is valued at this amount and then we’ll sell the whole thing to one person? Or are you subdividing that land?

James:
We’re condo wise, so we’re selling them separately. If we went to sell it, it actually mathematically wouldn’t make sense to buy that at two point, our combined value around 2.3, the cap rate would be like a five cap. Now, that was working when rates were low and there was a lot of demand for rental property at that time. But in today’s market, we’re pricing them all separately.

Dave:
All right, well it sounds like we got three great deals and great examples of how being creative and knowing your local market extremely well, can lead to excellent deals even during these times with high interest rates and very low inventory.
I think that’s all we got for today. But before we get out of here, where can people follow you guys to learn more about these deals and follow along? Kathy, let’s start with you.

Kathy:
Realwealth.com is where you can find me, my company. And then on Instagram, kathyfettke.

Dave:
Henry?

Henry:
Best place to find me is on Instagram. I’m @thehenrywashington on Instagram.

Dave:
And James?

James:
IG is a good place to find me, @jdainflips or jamesdainard.com.

Dave:
All right, great. Well, thank you all so much for listening. We greatly appreciate it. If you do want to share any deals that you’re doing currently, you can always do that on the BiggerPockets forums. We actually even have an On The Market section there, and we would love to hear about the deals that our listeners are doing. So make sure to check that out. You can go to biggerpockets.com/forums and do just that.
Thanks again for listening, we’ll see you next time.
On The Market is created by me, Dave Meyer and Kailyn Bennett. Produced by Kailyn Bennett, editing by Joel Esparza and Onyx Media. Research by Pooja Jindal, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. And a very special thanks to the entire BiggerPockets team.
The content on the show On The Market are opinions only. All listeners should independently verify data points, opinions, and investment strategies.

Skyler Olsen, Zillow chief economist, joins ‘Fast Money’ to talk sky-high mortgage rates, the real estate market and what’s ahead for the market.

It can be said that no professional is ever truly done learning—even ones with years of experience. This is especially true for marketing professionals, as the interests and behaviors of consumers are constantly changing, meaning the way companies must market to them must change as well. In order to keep up, marketers must continue to hone a number of skills throughout their careers, whether that’s through online courses or continued on-the-job training.

While not every skill or trait should be given the same amount of attention, there are a few that should make the top of your list. Here, the business leaders of Young Entrepreneur Council share nine skills or traits even the best marketing leaders should continue to work on and why.

1. Data Analysis

I believe that, in the age of digital marketing, one skill that even the best marketing leaders should continue to work on is data analysis. This is true because marketing leaders must possess strong data analysis skills to extract valuable insights from customer behavior, market trends and campaign performance. When you have deep data analysis knowledge, you can stay informed and identify the current trends in the market. This is very important for you to be ahead of your competitors and achieve success. – Andrew Munro, AffiliateWP

2. Setting Strategic Agendas

Marketing teams have been and continue to be a cross-collaboration engine for many organizations, supporting and closing the gap between multiple lines of businesses or functions. The most successful marketing leaders are ones who can create a shared vision and have mutual accountability across the executive leadership team. Bringing focus to the brand can guide a strong shared and strategic vision, navigate emerging consumer needs and look to map and own the customer experience across the entire organization. This will enable the marketing team to grow in organizational importance as they partner across key business units. – Ryan Stoner

3. Communication

Always ask yourself: Is this message clear? Do people care? Am I reaching the right people at the right time with the right message and offer? Success in marketing revolves around constantly improving and adjusting your communications tactics while staying true to your core brand values and overall communication strategy. – Andy Karuza, NachoNacho

4. Adaptability

In today’s rapidly changing marketing landscape, staying adaptable is crucial to keep up with evolving trends, technologies and consumer behavior. Adaptable leaders can quickly adjust strategies, embrace new platforms and respond to market shifts, ensuring their marketing efforts remain relevant and effective. This skill enables marketing leaders to stay ahead of the competition, maintain a competitive edge and drive success in an ever-changing business environment. – Kristin Kimberly Marquet, Marquet Media, LLC

5. Empathy

I believe that even the best marketing leaders should continually hone their ability to empathize with and understand the ever-changing needs and desires of their customers. The world evolves, and so do consumers’ preferences. Cultivating deep empathy allows leaders to stay attuned to these shifts, creating more resonant and effective campaigns. At Velvet Caviar, we make this a priority, ensuring our marketing aligns with our audience’s values and needs. This practice keeps us relevant, connected and innovative in our approach, and it’s a skill that never stops adding value. – Michelle Aran, Velvet Caviar

6. Technical Competence

In the rapidly evolving landscape of marketing, gaining technical competence and staying ahead is essential. With the explosive growth of artificial intelligence, the dynamics of marketing have been fundamentally transformed. AI now plays a pivotal role in crafting personalized customer experiences, automating tasks and providing actionable insights. However, leveraging these benefits requires continuous skill development. Marketing leaders must understand AI tools and their applications, stay updated on AI trends and hone data interpretation skills. In short, gaining technical competence in AI is key to staying ahead and driving success in modern marketing. – Duran Inci, Optimum7

7. Conversion Rate Optimization

Since the ultimate goal of any business is driving profits and surviving, the most important skill a leader should have is conversion rate optimization. This refers to the skill of making the right changes to a website, landing page, social media campaign or other spaces to get customers to take action. This action could be to sign up for a newsletter, buy a product, engage on social media or something else. Conversion rate optimization requires a specific mindset and knowledge of marketing psychology. It’s all about making small changes, testing and identifying ways to drive conversions higher. I believe that this is a critical skill that a leader should not stop building and learning about through various sources. – Syed Balkhi, WPBeginner

8. Time Management

Marketers are often pulled in different directions, so the best skill set to continue to work on is time management. It’s key to be able to delegate, understand when to say no, know how to estimate time and schedule deadlines. Those who are most efficient with these can accomplish more tasks and set up better expectations. – Peter Boyd, PaperStreet Web Design

9. Storytelling

Storytelling is a skill that even the best marketing leaders should continuously refine. Why? Because it’s the magical ingredient that sparks a genuine connection with audiences. Think about it: We’ve all been wired to respond to stories since our caveman days. As a marketing leader, you want your audience to identify with your brand’s purpose, values and vision. Moreover, in today’s crowded digital landscape, attention spans are shorter than ever. Attend workshops, read books, analyze successful campaigns and experiment with different narrative techniques. The more you practice, the more you’ll unleash the magic of storytelling in your marketing efforts, forging a powerful connection with your audience that leaves a lasting impression. – Abhijeet Kaldate, Astra WordPress Theme

The Internet of Things (IoT) has evolved from a buzzword to a transformative force that’s reshaping industries across the globe. In this article, we’ll zoom in on five key areas where IoT innovators could thrive.

1. Smart Home Solutions

One of the most accessible and tangible IoT domains is smart home technology. From thermostats that learn your preferences to voice-activated virtual assistants, IoT has revolutionized our homes. Smart home device adoption has surged, with Statista projecting that the number of connected devices in smart homes will reach over 1.6 billion by 2025.

Startups like Nest, now part of Google, have gained remarkable success by offering innovative smart thermostats that not only enhance comfort but also conserve energy. These technologies are in high demand as they offer tangible benefits to consumers, from energy savings to improved security.

That said, home solutions are by far the most obvious IoT market, which makes it one of the most competitive. Because of this, for early-stage companies, it might be a good idea to explore niche, non-obvious device ideas.

Example Business Idea: a device able to track movement within your home and draw heat maps in order to help you with making more practical furniture layout and interior design decisions.

2. Industrial IoT (IIoT) – Manufacturing And Logistics

Industrial IoT (IIoT) is radically altering the landscape of manufacturing and supply chain logistics. By integrating sensors and data analytics into industrial processes, IIoT optimizes operations, minimizes downtime, and bolsters safety measures. McKinsey estimated that IIoT applications could have an economic impact of up to $3.7 trillion annually by 2025.

In this space, companies like Sigfox have risen to prominence by developing low-power, wide-area networks (LPWANs) that facilitate cost-effective, large-scale connectivity for industrial devices. Startups have immense potential in creating specialized IIoT solutions that cater to specific niche industry needs, such as predictive maintenance, real-time monitoring, supply chain optimization, and others.

Example Business Idea: A supply chain visibility platform that provides end-to-end visibility into the supply chain, enabling businesses to track and manage goods in real time.

3. Healthcare IoT

Healthcare IoT is at the forefront of improving patient care and healthcare management. Wearables, remote patient monitoring devices, and IoT-enabled medical equipment are making healthcare more personalized and efficient. According to a report by MarketsandMarkets, the global healthcare IoT market is projected to reach $188 billion by 2026. The demand for innovative healthcare IoT solutions is likely to soar as the population ages and healthcare becomes more digitized.

Healthcare IoT could also have a low barrier to entry as early-stage startups could develop apps that use the improving tech of the already immensely popular smart watches and other wearable devices.

Example Business Idea: offer data analytics tools for healthcare institutions to derive valuable insights from IoT-generated patient data, improving patient care and outcomes.

4. Retail IoT

Retail IoT is revolutionizing the way we shop. With IoT, retailers can offer personalized shopping experiences, optimize inventory management, and streamline supply chains. This technology is not only enhancing customer engagement but also driving operational efficiency. The global IoT in the retail market is predicted to reach $297.44 billion by 2030, according to Grand View Research. Startups in this domain have the opportunity to innovate in areas such as in-store analytics, inventory management, and customer engagement solutions.

Amazon Go, Amazon’s cashierless store concept, is a good example of how IoT can redefine the retail sector.

Example Business Idea: Eye-tracker devices on store shelves could collect and analyze the viewing patterns of customers in order to optimize store layouts.

5. Environmental Monitoring with IoT

IoT is playing a pivotal role in environmental monitoring and conservation. By deploying IoT sensors in natural habitats and urban areas, valuable data on air quality, water quality, and wildlife behavior can be collected. This data aids in early detection of environmental issues and informs conservation efforts.

Startups like Conservation Metrics are using IoT to gather critical data for wildlife conservation. Their solutions enable researchers to better understand and protect endangered species by tracking and analyzing their habitats and behaviors.

The growing concern for the environment and the need for actionable data make this a promising niche for innovative startups. That said, naturally, the growth promise of a particular market is only one of many factors you need to consider when you choose the right niche for your startup project.