When a member of the C-suite leaves their position, it can have a ripple effect throughout the whole company. Because they’re a key leader of your business, their departure may leave employees wondering whether they were let go or left of their own accord, whether their own jobs will be affected, whether there will be significant changes to the company culture or whether new policies and procedures will be put in place.

While change is often necessary in order for companies to grow, key changes in leadership must be handled thoughtfully to help quell these fears and answer employees’ questions. To do so, consider the following advice from the members of Young Entrepreneur Council. Here, they offer their best tips for how to ensure a smooth transition and avoid any negative impacts after a C-suite exec leaves your company.

1. Open Lines Of Communication

Keep a pulse on employee morale. Humans are creatures of habit, and we often struggle with change. When members of the C-suite leave their positions, it can create uncertainty and anxiety among employees. To avoid this, you can open lines of communication and remain empathetic to their concerns. This will help non-management employees feel heard and supported during transition time. – Bryce Welker, Crush The CPA Exam

2. Involve The Entire Team In The Transition

To avoid any negative impacts on the business, I would suggest involving the entire team in the transition process. For instance, at Rainfactory, we scheduled one-on-one meetings with the replacement hire as soon as we found the candidate. This not only helps streamline the process, but it also ensures that there is no loss of valuable information or expertise. – Kaitlyn Witman, Rainfactory

3. Avoid Creating More Change

Creating stability companywide is the best way to avoid negative impacts and ensure a smooth transition when an executive leaves their position. While long-term change is inevitable, try to avoid other drastic changes in the short term. The rest of the organization will feel more stable in their own positions if most of their day-to-day work life remains unchanged. – Ian Blair, BuildFire

4. Outline And Communicate An Action Plan

Outline and communicate an action plan to fill in the gap. This will show that you are equipped with everything you need to handle the transition, and it will boost team confidence and morale since they will know operations won’t be disturbed. Of course, you also want the exec’s departure to be on good terms, so communicate that. In doing so, you put everyone at ease with the new change. – Firas Kittaneh, Amerisleep Mattress

5. Provide Access To Support

There’s no question that when a C-suite team member leaves, this can cause stress among your employees. The best way to reduce the negative impact is to create a support web designed to help employees who are feeling a little worried and anxious. If there’s someone there to help and guide them, they are far less likely to get overwhelmed when there’s a significant change in management. – Chris Christoff, MonsterInsights

6. Onboard Someone Who Can Navigate Change

To avoid any negative impact when a member of the C-suite leaves the company, you need to seek and onboard a better replacement. The goal here shouldn’t just be to hire a professional who is best suited for the role—it should also be to hire a “people person” capable of keeping up with chaotic situations. Doing so will help you fill the skill gap and address the questions that others have been asking along the way. – Stephanie Wells, Formidable Forms

7. Prioritize Transparency

When a member of the C-suite leaves, transparency is the best policy to deal with the situation. Start by conveying the news to all key stakeholders and announce that you’ve been looking for a suitable replacement. Remember, rumors and speculations are bound to follow. The only way to control the narrative is by catering to the looming queries and concerns in a straightforward way. – Jared Atchison, WPForms

8. Facilitate A Smooth Transfer Of Knowledge

My top tip for ensuring a smooth transition would be to facilitate effective knowledge transfer. Encourage open communication and documentation of key responsibilities, processes and contacts. Facilitate collaborative handovers, where departing executives share insights and mentor successors. This knowledge transfer minimizes disruption, empowers the incoming leaders and fosters continuity within the company. – Ian Sells, JoinBrands.com

9. Step In To Help Temporarily

I’ve found that it’s helpful to step in personally and manage things for a while until a new person is in place. This helps your team because they’ll know who to turn to, and this also helps you get back in touch with the daily workings of your company. Plus, you’ll find loose ends that you can step in and fix. So, get in and support the transition personally to keep things running smoothly. – Blair Williams, MemberPress

Ashley:
This is Real Estate Rookie episode 317.

Mackenzie:
So it was definitely scary to get into investing, but then we started seeing the long-term benefit of just this multiple streams of income and residual income, and by being in real estate, I started to see, oh, my gosh, the equity, and when we had bought and sold houses before, so that opportunity for equity and appreciation in there too opened our eyes, “Okay. I feel like this is a safe route to go,” if that’s a good word to use. So that made us jump into doing that.

Ashley:
My name is Ashley Kehr, and I’m here with my co-host, Tony J. Robinson,

Tony:
Welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast where every week, twice a week, we bring you the inspiration, motivation, and stories you need to hear to kickstart your investing journey. Ashley Kehr, I’m pumped for today’s episode. This is actually someone that you recruited into the ranks of the real estate rookie world that you met at an event, and I’m super glad you did. We got Mackenzie Brogdon on the podcast, and she’s just a ball of energy and she’s got a really, really cool story as well.

Ashley:
I met her at AJ Osborne’s CRE Circle live event in Boise, Idaho, and she was just a ball of fire, had great energy, but also had a really good story. So she’s going to tell you all about that story of how she got into investing in real estate. She’ll do a great job of actually explaining why she chose not to invest out of state and give some of the reasons that turned her off from doing that. One thing to highlight with Mackenzie is that she was a new investor. She hadn’t done a deal, but she’s going to tell you how she got a partner on her very first deal that pretty much put in the majority of the capital.

Tony:
She also talks about how she started off as a real estate agent, how much volume of sales she did in a relatively short period of time, which was amazing. She goes in to talk about how she manages her rehab and what she learned between that first deal and that second deal. She’ll go on and tell you guys a really cool strategy for how she’s finding subs, managing her budgets, and keeping her projects on track for both time and money. So just overall, I think you guys are really going to get a lot out of this conversation with Mackenzie.

Ashley:
Mackenzie also breaks down what sub two is, a creative financing strategy, and also a sober living facilities, and how she actually was able to coordinate arbitrage situation, and she will go into and explain what that is.

Tony:
We go over a few real estate terms throughout this podcast, and we probably didn’t do the best job of breaking those down in the moment. So just a resource for all of our rookies that are listening, if you go to biggerpockets.com/glossary, there’s actually a glossary of terms that are all important in the world of real estate investing. So for example, we talked about EMD on the podcast today. That stands for Earnest Money Deposit. So if you weren’t familiar with that phrase, that’s what it means, but if you want the whole rundown of all the real estate key terms, again, head over to biggerpockets.com/glossary.
Now, I want to give a quick shout out to someone that left us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. They go by the name of JeanBean16, and Jean says, “Truly the best podcast for rookies.” Her review’s a little bit longer, but it’s such a good one. I got to read the whole thing. She says, “Ashley and Tony, I love you guys. I’ve listened to over 100 BiggerPockets podcasts,” and she’s talking about the real estate show, “and recently listened to the one with the two of you on it.” So Ash and I recently co-hosted an episode on the Real Estate Podcast. She says, “I really love the information you both provided, so I immediately followed your podcast and, wow, the wealth of knowledge that has come from the two of you in just a few short days is unbelievable. Listen, you guys, if you’re truly new or relatively new to the real estate investing market, this is the podcast to dive into headfirst. Between the BP Podcast and the Rookie podcast, I feel like I have my degree in real estate investing for beginners. Keep up the good work.”
So Jean, or I’m sorry, it’s actually JenBean16, but Jen, I think you’ve said everything that is the goal of Real Estate Rookie Podcast is to help folks at that beginning phase and give them the confidence to move forward. So for all of our rookies that are listening, the reason we ask you guys to leave reviews is because it encourages that next person that’s on the fence about listening to actually dive into the whole BiggerPockets ecosystem, and when they do that, it’s a life-changing moment. So take a few minutes, leave a review on whatever podcast platform it is you’re listening to, and you can inspire that next person to become a real estate investor.

Ashley:
Mackenzie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. Do you want to start off with telling everyone a little bit about yourself and how you got started in real estate?

Mackenzie:
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. I am a Southern California native, born and raised in Southern California. I moved up here to Boise, Idaho in late 2017. I got licensed as a real estate agent in 2020 and started investing in 2021. I have a husband and two little kids. Both of them are toddlers under three years old, so life’s a little bit crazy, but we love it.

Ashley:
So what’s that first initial thing that got you into real estate?

Mackenzie:
I actually can’t take credit for it. In 2020, my husband was the, I guess, main income earner, main breadwinner for our family, and he goes, “Hey, Mackenzie, we should get an investment property,” and I go, “Okay. Cool. That sounds awesome. Let’s do that.” We owned our house at the time, we had some equity in it up here in Boise. So he sat down with a good friend and mentor of ours who was a real estate agent, Shelby Paget, and Shelby goes, “Hey, yeah, let’s get you in investing, and Mackenzie should just get her real estate license.” So that sparked, “Yeah, I should get my real estate license.” I have a background in network marketing, sales, graphic design, interior design. My dad was a general contractor growing up, so done all the things, it seemed to be a good fit. So I got licensed in October of 2020, and then my husband ended up quitting his job to let me thrive in real estate. So it was like a make it or break it, has to work in real estate moment for us, and thankfully it did.

Ashley:
So tell us about that first conversation about investing in real estate. What were some of the things that piqued your interest? Did you have any hesitation that maybe buying an investment property wasn’t the right thing for you?

Mackenzie:
Yeah, I think it was tough. We were looking at going the house hacking route, and at the time we had a , I think, four or five-month-old. So we said, “Wait a second, are we really going to do this right now? This is crazy.” So the fear of, “What if it doesn’t work out? What if you move your family? What if you stretch yourself too thin?” and knowing that, “Okay, maybe my husband is going to quit his job. We don’t want to stretch our finances so far and then get too overextended,” and we don’t have a fallback plan. So it was definitely scary to get into investing, but then we started seeing the long-term benefit of just this multiple streams of income and residual income, and by being in real estate, I started to see, oh, my gosh, the equity, and when we had bought and sold houses before, so that opportunity for equity and appreciation in there too opened our eyes, “Okay. I feel like this is a safe route to go,” if that’s a good word to use. So that made us jump into doing that.

Tony:
Mackenzie, I just want to pause for a second, and if you can, let’s give our listeners just an overview of where you’ve gone since October, 2020 when you got that license to where you are today. So I guess, how many transactions have you done? What does the portfolio look like today?

Mackenzie:
So I feel like real estate sales for me on the realtor side of it is different than real estate on the investing side of it. It’s completely different. I think people think, “Oh, my gosh, all real estate agents are investors,” and that’s actually very much not the case. Most agents don’t invest in real estate, which I don’t understand how that happens, but I got licensed in 2020 and it was a make it or break it moment for us. So I just put my head down and started working probably harder than anyone else, and I was grateful to Shelby for mentoring me and teaching me a lot of the ropes and I watched him as he was investing and things like that.
So as far as the sales part of it, I’ve been really blessed. I’ve done over, gosh, three million in my time here and then a little over 60 transactions. Actually, it’s probably pushing 70 now, a little over 70 transactions in my sales time. Then as far as investing goes, we started in March of 2021 when I found a opportunity on market that looks like a good flip, and I always wanted to flip. Of course, everyone’s seeing all the flipping shows, and with my background in interior design I’m like, “This just goes hand in hand.” So we ended up grabbing this flip. We brought on a partner, that partner took the main equity stake, and I said, “Hey, you’re out of town. I’m going to help manage it for you, and I’ve got a little bit of cash that I can invest in it. Will you just let me partner in this with you?”
So he said yes. So we flipped that house in April of 2021. That went well, and then within another calendar year, one full calendar year, we had flipped a second house and that one we had more of an equity stake. So those were just fix and flips, and then we started moving into long-term holds. So now we have four long-term hold rentals, and then we are under contract on another that’ll help us house hack a little bit and then working on some other creative finance deals in the background, underwriting them right now. So we’ll see how that goes.

Ashley:
So you have really propelled yourself over the last couple years, even two years. Congratulations on that. I want to go back to that first deal where you talked about you found a partner. How did you find this partner? How did you approach them? That’s one of the biggest struggles of a rookie. You’ve never done a deal, but yet you’re asking somebody to be your partner in this. So go into the details on that for us, please.

Tony:
Before you do, Mackenzie, anytime we say the word partner now, we got to plug our book. So this podcast is going to come out in the future, but today, the day that we’re recording this is actually the day that mine and Ashley’s book Real Estate Partnership launches. So if you guys head over to biggerpockets.com/partnership, you guys can pick up a copy of this book, and I think there’s still a couple bonuses that are available for folks that order during the first month that it releases. So if you want to capture some of those heads of real estate or heads of biggerpockets.com/partnership, just pick up a copy. So Mackenzie, sorry to interject there, but it’s just a mandatory now that anytime anyone says the word partnership that Ash and I plug our book.

Mackenzie:
I love it. I love it. Worth the interjection. So I was newer to real estate, but what I did is I started with finding the deal. So I found the deal, I ran the numbers, I had learned how to comp properties so I knew what this property would be worth after the repair, I knew what it would take to go into it just with my background in general contracting, had some people look into it. So I started with finding the deal and then we go, “Okay. How are we going to fund this? Who’s going to buy this?” Even though I didn’t really have real estate experience at the time, I had life experience.
So back from my home in Southern California, my husband and I were very involved in multiple circles. We were coaches in different aspects and sports and things like that. So this connection was someone who we had worked with for years. They had trusted us with their kids. So I was like, “Well, if they trust us with their kids, they’re going to trust us with their money, right?” So we just called him and we said, “Hey, Bob, I know this is crazy, but this is the deal. This is what it’s looking at. Here’s the numbers, I’ll show you. I’ll send you the comps. Here’s what I think it can do,” and because they had that trust aspect I think already with us, they trusted us in the opportunity.
So because we had already built that relationship with them, they felt comfortable to take that leap into partnering with us. So since then, they actually are one of our main partners. They partner with us on a lot of deals now and we’re very grateful for them.

Tony:
Mackenzie, you just did a phenomenal breakdown of a lot of what Ash and I talk about when it comes to finding partnerships. So I’m just going to break down what you said here for a second, so bear with me. So first, you identified what your unique skillset was, and that was finding the deal. So you leveraged your strengths, you leveraged your skills to find a really good deal. Then you said, “Okay. If I’m looking at the puzzle pieces of making this transaction happen, I’ve got the deal finding, I’ve got even the property or the project management side, but I’m missing the capital side. So okay, let me go out and find a partner to fill that void.” So you go out there and you find someone that has those resources that you’re lacking.
Now, this person had never really done real estate before, but you said the reason that they were willing to work with you was because there was that level of trust there. One of the things that Ash and I say in the book is that when you’re looking for a partner, people typically partner with people that they either know, like or that they know, like, and trust. So you need all three of those. So even though this person had never invested in real estate before, because you had that foundation of know, like, and trust, when you presented them with an opportunity, they were willing to jump at it because you guys had built that foundation.
Ash talks a lot about her first partnership where that partner invested his life savings into a deal, and it’s because him and Ashley had that know, like, and trust. So I just love that story because you really exemplify all of the critical elements of putting a partnership together.

Mackenzie:
I think a lot of people think, “Oh, I can’t get started until I have all this real estate experience.” Well, you’re never going to get started if … because it takes deals and capital and things to get that experience. So I completely agree, and I think if people open their eyes to, “Oh, maybe this person …” I hear that all the time, “I don’t know anyone with money.” I actually really doubt that’s true. So really look, and it never hurts to ask, and I always say, if you find a deal, I feel like the money and the capital will follow. You just got to start with the deal. So yeah, I agree.

Ashley:
That’s definitely great advice. Mackenzie, would you go into how did you structure this deal? Would you mind sharing the numbers of how much money each person contributed, what your role was, what their role was, and how much equity each person got?

Mackenzie:
Yeah. So probably not the prettiest on paper, meaning that there was no paper. It was a handshake agreement, which now that I’ve done more deals, I’m like, “Oh, man, that was sticky for me, that was sticky for them,” but we just trusted each other so it worked out. So essentially, we just structured it as whatever anyone was putting into the property was their equity stake in the property. So they fronted the majority of the money for the … They bought it in cash, took title to the property, and then they funded most of the renovations. I guess we funded a lot of the purchases of the supplies because we said, “Hey, we can buy in …” I think we sent in $30,000, which was like, “This is a 10% equity stake in the property.”
So then at the end of the day, we put together all the profits and losses once we sold it and just distributed things out from there. I actually, because I didn’t really have experience, I didn’t even charge. We’ve worked other deals now where I’m like, “Okay. If I’m going to property or project manage it, I’m going to take an additional portion of the equity or charge or something like that.” I didn’t even do that on this one because I just wanted them to feel like they could trust me. So I just took the portion of what I put into it, capital-wise, of the profit and the deal when we sold it.

Ashley:
Mackenzie, I did the exact same thing on my first deal. I didn’t put any dollar amount to my value. Really, I gave up a lot in that first deal, but that’s what gets you started. Being able to show that you can do that, you can be the boots on the ground, you can be the project manager, whatever that is, then that’s where you can go and bake your value in. It sounds like you also dated this partner. You went into this partnership not just, “Okay. Every flip now we’re doing with you guys and this is how it is. Whatever the money you put in, that’s your equity from now until forever,” but you did one deal and then you bring the next deal and you’re able to renegotiate with them. I think that is a tremendous point is when you’re dealing with a partner is to try to set it up that way you’re not locked into something that you end up regretting and you can change it for the next deal.

Mackenzie:
Yup, absolutely. It’s changed every deal. We’re on our third partnership deal with them, and then they’ve done a few investing deals with me that I’ve just served as their agent on it, and every deal has looked different.

Ashley:
That’s definitely cool of having that flexibility with somebody. So let’s talk about, okay, so you did your flip and then what comes next? Did you get the bug? Did you guys make a bunch of money on that one? What happened?

Mackenzie:
So that one, I’ll be honest, the margins were slim. We ended up learning a lot of what, I guess maybe not even what to do, but what we wanted to do because we learned a lot of what not to do. I’ve heard multiple guest speakers on here talk about the struggle with general contractors and, oh, man, we struggled with a general contractor. So it was in the heart of 2020 where everyone was slammed, the real estate market was going crazy, everyone was losing it. So I brought in someone who was a mutual friend and I go, “Oh, this is going to work out great. I know them,” and it didn’t work out great.
So it ended up we were overpaying for terrible work that was taking way too long and me being over here on the project management side of it too, I’m like, “Okay. Let’s push it along.” The partner’s like, “Hey, what’s going on?” because he lives out of state and I’d be there all the time, “No one’s here, no one’s here. We got to push this along. This is a terrible job. The paint’s bubbling,” all this stuff. So we ended up about a month or two before we wrapped up, I said, “This is it.” I told the contractor, I’m like, “I’ll pay you for what you’ve done. We’re going to just finish the rest of it.”
So then I just brought on subcontractors for it. So at the end of the day, it worked out. We made a little bit of money enough to put a good taste in everyone’s mouth, but I think that we realized we just learned a lot. So then there was more competence in what we’re going to do next. So actually, when we were in escrow on that property under contract to close it, it sold after two days on market. It didn’t even get through first full weekend. We wanted a contract to buy another flip. So we did another flip with them, and this time we were actually a higher equity stake, and then I also buffered in a portion of the profit for my project management in the next deal.

Tony:
So Mackenzie, you said that the margins were slim. So it sounds like you didn’t maybe make as much profit as you wanted to, but there’s something important I want to point out there. You basically got paid to educate yourself on how to flip a home for a profit.

Mackenzie:
Oh, absolutely.

Tony:
There is an incredible amount of value even if you broke even on everything that you learned throughout that first flip that you were then able to apply to that second flip to do it more confidently. So I would love to break down some of those lessons you learned in the first flip that you’re like, “Okay. We need to change this for the next one.” So what were some of those lessons learned and how did you change when you went into the second flip?

Mackenzie:
Yeah. Well, you totally touched on it. Honestly, even if we had lost money in it, which thankfully we didn’t, it probably still would’ve been a good opportunity because I was very vocal on social media with it. So I shared the whole deal, “We’re flipping this and we’re doing that,” and I shared all of the, “Oh, man, this didn’t work out, but this is working out and this is how it turned out.” It actually solidified me as a real estate investor. So it pushed my career forward in sales for investors, “Oh, Mackenzie knows how to work the real estate market.”
So that was huge. I can’t even put a value on how that pushed me forward, but then as far as lessons that we learned in it, I definitely think we learned, one, you got to be conservative on your numbers. You think it’s going to take X amount of dollars and X amount of time, just double it, just plan to double it. Then if you end up closer, everyone’s happy, it’s a great day.
Then I think on the other side too, we really did learn, “Hey, I don’t think I need to bring a general contractor in,” because at the end of the day, they’re just project managing it. They’re bringing in all their own subs, and the most times they don’t even know what’s happening. So for me to have made connections during that by reaching out and just building my book of people I want to work with, it made the next process so much smoother and quicker. There was just so much more of an ease because it’s like, “Okay. I trust my tile guy to come in and do an amazing job. I trust my painter to come in and do an awesome job.”
Then I don’t even worry about, “Oh, was that a good bid? Did I get a second one?” I just know it’s going to be great. So I just learned to grow your list of people that you know and trust and use them, and it makes it a lot easier. Then we learned too the benefit of just not using a general contractor personally.

Tony:
Mackenzie, you talked about growing your list of people, but I think for a lot of our rookies that are listening, that’s where that challenge is is that, “How the heck do I find a sub?” So is there a Facebook marketplace that you’re going to? Is there Craigslist? How are you identifying these subs? How are you vetting them? Then how are you as the, quote, unquote, “juicy for your own property”, making sure that you’re sequencing these subs at the right time so they’re not getting each other’s way because I think that’s the challenging part as well?

Mackenzie:
I think experience and referrals are the greatest place to find people. So it goes back to that like, know, and trust people. So for instance, I found my tile guy through another agent at my brokerage. She goes, “Oh, my gosh, I’ve used this tile guy for my houses before. He’s the best. You have to talk to him.” So that starts the conversation. Then I always look for how responsive are they and then how professional are they in my interactions. My tile guy showed up on time, he brought a notebook, he brought a tape measure, he measured all down. He had a professional invoice that he sent to me. I think a lot of contractors fail in that part because they’re more of just like the hands-on, they don’t understand the admin part of it, but if you really care about the process from start to finish, I feel like that gave me peace that I know he’s going to be an exceptional tile worker before he even laid a tile for me. So I think that was huge.
Then, yeah, I did share a lot and I wouldn’t just blast it on Facebook marketplace. I started with people I knew. So I started within real estate agents that I worked with, “Who are you using to paint houses? Who are you using as electricians?” Then in my personal Facebook sphere, if someone I knew had used this person, he did a great job on their plumbing, I would talk to that person. So really trusting that personal word of mouth referral helped build that book a lot. If someone I know had a great experience with them, I feel like that’s just an extra leg up that I’m going to have a great experience with them.

Ashley:
How has your process changed as far as estimating the rehab from that first deal until now? Give us those scenarios and then maybe even some tips for somebody getting started as to what they can do to learn how to estimate a rehab. You said your dad was a contractor, but beyond that, did you really know a ton about what it costs to do construction?

Mackenzie:
Honestly, I tend to wing it a little bit, which probably isn’t a great advice here, but I’ve just gotten a lot of bids. So in that first Reno project, I got three general contractors to come out and bid the job, and I would see where everything would line up. Then you just start realizing, “Okay. To paint an exterior of a house should be around maybe $7,000, $10,000.” So on my estimating, I always estimate on that slightly higher range of what I know. The houses we’re flipping are all about the same. We’re looking for that mid-range square footage, so you can ballpark, “Okay. This is about the same house, so this is probably what it’s going to cost for exterior painting.”
If you’re not sure, I think you just get multiple bids. Most contractors, especially now that they have a little more time on their hands, are great at getting you bids. So I do try to gather as many bids as I can, but to put together that budget, I’ll aim high with my estimate when you have to move quick on getting a property under contract. Then we just put in placeholder bids Let’s say $10,000 for painting, and then the paint comes in at 9,500. Cool, I have an extra buffer. So I say aim high and then get the actual bid and then adjust your spreadsheet.

Ashley:
Mackenzie, as a real estate agent, do you think that you have an advantage of getting contractors into the property because you can really schedule a time for you to go anytime you want to a property, correct, and bringing them in?

Mackenzie:
Yeah. Most of my deals have come on market or coming soon or now, I’m starting to build a network of people who are bringing me deals off market, but most of mine are coming from on market. So I think a lot of people say, “Oh, you can’t find a deal on market.” Well, that’s not true. That’s happened multiple times for me. I love the coming soon listing on the MLS. It’s like this sweet pocket of time. People don’t ask questions. I don’t know if they’re scared of being told no or what, but they don’t ask questions and I’ll ask questions. So both of my flips actually were coming soon. They weren’t even on the market, but I just called the agent. I said, “Hey, I know this is coming soon. I know I can’t see the property because we can’t get into it until it’s on market. Can I submit an offer before it’s even on market?”
They’d say, “Yeah, sure,” and then I can write contingencies in there like, “Let me get my inspection done. Let me do things like that,” so yes. Then as far as if you’re working on market deals, I do think that agents give you a little more credibility and it gives them a little more confidence too even when negotiating with their sellers of like, “Oh, she’s an agent and I’m a very high producing agent in the area. Oh, I’ve worked with her before. I’ve heard of her,” whatever. It does help give some credibility to it. So I do think it’s been helpful.

Tony:
I just want to go back to one thing you said, Mackenzie, because you mentioned spreadsheet, and this is something we’ve always struggled with with our flips is just the best way to manage all of the expenses and make sure you’re coming in on budget. So once you set up that initial budget, what are you using to track expenses to make sure you’re within range?

Mackenzie:
Google Drive all day, every day. You should see my spreadsheets. I feel like nothing makes me happier than a good spreadsheet that auto sums down at the bottom. I’m not even that good at creating them, but I can use the sum. Sometimes I was like, “Oh, this one turns green,” if you’re under, “This one turns red.” So honestly, we just do Google spreadsheets. I will say now too even moving forward, I’ve delegated a little more of that. So my husband does most of that now, which is great because he’s actually better at numbers than me, but we just use good old Google sheets for everything. Then it’s so great too because we share that with our investors. So look at it. So we’ll share that with our partners and everyone has access to it so they can see, “Hey, this bid came in,” or, “Hey, this came in lower, this came in higher,” and they could just see it all.

Tony:
So Ash and I are both spreadsheet nerds here. I’ve probably seen more pivot tables in a week than most people see in a lifetime. So are you just literally taking every single transaction like, “Hey, we just paid the painter X dollars. We just paid our drywall guy this much”? Are you taking every single transaction and just drop it into a big Excel sheet and then categorizing all of those?

Mackenzie:
So we’ll have the master budget. So let’s say painting came in at $10,000. We have set aside for it in the master budget, but at the end of the day, we only paid him 8,500. That goes in there. So then we see that $2,500 surplus. Usually it gets spent somewhere else, but it all balances out like over here we had 5,000 budget, but it took us 5,500, somewhere in there. So yeah, we have the big bid and then underneath it will be what the actual was.

Ashley:
I want to pivot to a different direction. So you did your flips and then you mentioned you have four rental units too. So can you tell us how you made that pivot from doing flips to acquiring rental properties?

Mackenzie:
So our first flip that we partnered in on was March of 2021. We caught the bug for investing, but we want to do this, and at that time, my husband had quit his job, so we couldn’t qualify conventionally because I didn’t have two years of tax returns so we don’t look good on paper, but we owned a house that had significant amount of equity in it because we bought it before everyone thought Idaho was cool. So in July, we said, “Well, we wish we could do a HELOC or something like that, but we can’t. Let’s just sell our house and take the equity out of it.”
So we put our house on the market, our primary house on the market in July and netted a very large amount of money from it. So that helped catapult us into things. So from selling that house, then we bought a new primary residence. We used those funds to partner in on that other flip. We purchased a property. We went under contract for a new build actually in Tennessee out of state.

Ashley:
What made you find that and decide on that?

Mackenzie:
It’s been a learning lesson. I actually don’t really investing out of state as I’m learning. I think maybe it’s my realtor pride. I just like that I can run my own comps. It bothers me to use another agent. I would just rather run it myself, but it was through a friend of ours who we … Actually, the agent, Shelby, who mentored me, he had a agent connection over there and it was these four houses that were being built, and $300,000 purchase price. It rents for $2,800 a month. The earnest money was a thousand dollars. Then at the end of the bill, it appraised for 350. So it was a huge win. So that’s just how we found it was I guess word of mouth connection for that one.

Tony:
I was just going to ask one followup on the Tennessee. Outside of the comping, is there anything else that I guess you’re not enjoying about the long distance piece? Is it the management itself? I guess what advice would you have for rookies to make that piece a little bit easier?

Mackenzie:
I don’t know this area of Tennessee, I’ve been to Tennessee before. My property’s in Maryville, which is about 30 minutes outside of Knoxville from my understanding. I’ve been to Knoxville, I’ve been to Nashville, but so yeah, just difficult working with another agent. I don’t know, you just see like, “I feel like this could be a little bit better,” when numbers kind of go from a high end to a low end, just a little bit of confusion. I love Zillow, but I can get the data that I can get from the MLS. So just working with another realtor, I prefer to be my own realtor.
Then we do hire a property manager for that, which is fine. He does great, but I just don’t know the market there as much as I know here. So when I have my in-state rentals, I manage them myself because I know the area. It’s easy for me to pop over. I know my contractors. I don’t know anyone there. So to be honest, it’s probably probably an issue with my own. I want to micromanage everything. So I don’t like that I have to trust other people to tell me what the rental estimate is, and yeah, I can run it, but that in neighborhood like, “I know this street, I know …” For instance, we bought this property and I look it up on Google Maps, but you don’t even realize what’s down the street from you. You’re like, “Ah, that’s a weird spot for a rental.” So just not being able to see the property, touch the property, know the area, and then you’re having to pay property managers, and if I want to sell it, I have to pay a new realtor fees and all that stuff.

Ashley:
After that property, did you only do deals in Idaho for your rentals after that?

Mackenzie:
Yeah. So now we have, let’s see, three, soon to be four in state. One of ours we bought, it was the good old end of the year scramble so we don’t have to pay some taxes. So we bought a property here in Idaho and renting out as a sober living facility, which is great. Then our next one, our last primary residence that we purchased, we flipped into a rental and moved into a new primary. So that helped us put less down. Then we just bought a property subject to that we’re renovating. That will be a long-term hold and will also be sober living. Then our current property that we’re in right now is a primary, we’re building a new primary, and so that’ll flip into probably a corporate living or executive rental.

Ashley:
We have a lot to unpack there. Let’s start with-

Mackenzie:
I know that was a lot.

Ashley:
Let’s start with, what is sober living? Explain that strategy and what you’re doing with the property to make it sober living.

Mackenzie:
So there’s a couple ways that you can go about this. The way we’re doing it, I love it because it’s very hands off. So I know someone who actually has been in the prison system, turned her life around, she’s amazing, she’s awesome, and she has a heart for people in those situations. So she actually has a direct contract and connection with the Idaho Department of Corrections. So what happens is when people get released from prison, they get released with $650 for their first month’s rent, and it goes directly to this gal for them to live in this house, and in the house, they have to abide by the rules, drug tests, do all this stuff. So they have to remain clean.
So it’s nice because I actually feel like I’m providing a place. There’s, oh, my gosh, I can’t remember the line, there’s literally people that can’t get released from prison because there’s not a sober living house for them to go to. So we’re actually trying to help her in gaining as many houses as we can for her. So how it works with her, you can do sober living on your own where you just literally market it almost like you would a rental and people can come to you, but there’s just a lot more management with it, but how it works with her is she signed a two-year lease and then essentially, it’s arbitrage or she’s subleasing it out.
So she signed a two-year lease at a fixed rate with me, and then however many people she puts in it, whatever income she brings, that’s all icing on the cake for her. So it’s really nice. It’s a set it and forget it from me, and they also property manage the house. They have a house manager that lives there. So they take care of any repairs under $500. If it’s major, we talk about it. So it’s been great so far.

Tony:
Mackenzie, did you charge a premium to them for this arbitrage deal or was it basic market rents?

Mackenzie:
No premium because it doesn’t make sense to have that many people living in the house. So the house that we have right now that she’s renting is a four-bedroom house, and I think she fits 10 to 12 people in it. So there’s certain state criteria that she has to follow, but it has to be above market value for me to justify the wear and tear on my property. So she does, for instance, that property, probably long-term rent, would rent for around 22 maybe, if I’m lucky, $2,400 a month and she signed a two-year lease at $3,200 a month.

Tony:
That’s awesome. I think that’s a big benefit as a landlord to doing rental arbitrage, which is what you said, where you lease it out to someone who instead of them living in it themselves, they turn it around and sublease it to someone else. So arbitrage is pretty big in the Airbnb space. If you’re listening to this and you’ve got a small multifamily or single family house, you want me to arbitrage it, send me a message, I’d love to connect because I think it’s a win-win situation. The landlord gets an elevated rent and the operator gets to acquire a unit at a fraction of what it would cost for them to purchase that. So it really is a win-win situation.
For our rookies that are listening, if you guys want more information on the sober living model, we interviewed Davana and Reed back on episode 265, 265, yeah. They did an entire hour breakdown of this model that Mackenzie’s talking about. So if you want to learn more about that, go there, but you also talked to, Mackenzie, aside from the sober living, you talked about subject to and creative finance. What the heck does that mean? We’ve got some other resources in the BiggerPockets ecosystem, but I’d love to hear from your experience. What does creative finance and subject to mean?

Mackenzie:
So to be honest, I’m newer to it. I guess I was doing creative financing without realizing I was doing creative financing because our property that we just bought, the sober living one that I was telling about that we bought last year, we ended up bringing in our partner as a private money lender. That’s a form of creative financing because we bought in cash, but we needed a little just to make up a little difference. So that was one aspect of it. When we purchased our property in Tennessee, still couldn’t qualify for traditional loans, so we purchased it using a DSCR loan. So there are other ways to go about it, but I really just got opened up to this world of true creative finance where we’re talking about subject to or really seller financing.
A lot more people have heard about seller financing. They have a bad taste in their mouth over it I think just because they’re not educated on it, but subject to is this powerful tool, and I really feel like it’s having its day in the sun right now. What it is essentially is we go into a contract with a seller where we agree to make their payments on their behalf. We take title to the property. The property is legally mine. I can use it for tax depreciation. I can do whatever I want with the house, but the power is that the debt actually stays in the seller’s name. It doesn’t negatively affect them, but it stays in their name so that I don’t have to go through credit checks, I don’t have to go through loan closing costs, I don’t have to go through debt to income. No one looks at my stuff. It’s actually scary. No one even looks at my stuff and I buy this house.
So it’s really the easiest way of transferring title and then agreeing to make payments to the seller. So we did that, and what sweet is now, I’m paying a mortgage that has a 2.6 rate on it, and I should be able to cashflow about a thousand dollars a month once it’s renovated and up and running.

Ashley:
That’s awesome. That’s really cool. We did interview Pace Morby on here. It was episode 280. He’s always a wealth of information. He’s also going to be one of the guest speakers on the Real Estate Bootcamp for BiggerPockets. So if anyone wants to join the bootcamps, you can go to biggerpockets.com/bootcamps and Pace will be one of the guest speakers on it. So really exciting, but that’s an awesome deal.
I want to ask, and you mentioned a couple of lessons that you had learned along the way, such as dealing with a general contractor, such as investing out of state, but what do you think was the hardest lesson that you had to learn? What was the most difficult thing through your journey as a rookie investor?

Mackenzie:
I think sometimes I’m all about you have to start to get anywhere. You’re never going to get further along if you never start. So that’s a huge piece, but also sometimes you get this adrenaline rush of like, “Let’s keep going, let’s keep doing this.” So sometimes I just think you need to be wise about the steps you’re taking before you take them. So probably our biggest moment was my husband and I went under contract to build a house, and we did the number one thing that you don’t do, which is buy the most expensive house in the neighborhood, right? Never do that. It’s terrible for values, but when it comes to a primary residence, this was going to be our house. We’re going to be in it with our family, dream home, blah, blah, blah.
However, we went into a contract on it at the peak of the market. So the market started tanking, which is okay if you’re going to ride it out. During that, just life changed a little bit for us. We want more kids, and this house wasn’t perfect for it, and just different things came up. Here nor there, at the end of the day, we ended up pivoting. We lost some money, but not as much as we could have. That’s actually going to turn into our new rental property that we bought. It worked out, but the biggest life lesson for me was the amount of sleepless nights I let it cause me.
The market is out of my control. Yeah, I can try to watch trends and follow it as quickly as I can, but sometimes the government does crazy stuff and here we are. So you can’t time it perfectly and you’re not going to win in every investment. You’re going to win some, you’re going to lose some, yes. Leverage your risks, be smart, don’t overleverage, but at the end of the day as long as you did your research before, what you’ve put out isn’t going to ruin your family if you were to lose it all. Just chill out. The peace of mind and the quality of life that you give up when you’re stressing over something you can’t even control is not worth it.
So I think when you go into investing, you just have to have a level mind about it and make sure that you keep that perspective about it, “I might lose some, but I’m going to win some and I’m usually going to come out over top.”‘ So I think that was probably my biggest struggle was I had to learn that the hard way, but I’m on the other side of it now and now I know

Tony:
You make a fantastic point, Mackenzie, about most real estate investors don’t have a perfect track record.

Mackenzie:
Absolutely.

Tony:
A lot of those failures, a lot of that adversity is what makes you a better investor in the long run. For example, last summer, we attempted to do our first syndication and it was a small hotel here in Southern California and we had to raise, I think, five million bucks was our target raise, and we ended up raising 2.9 or 2.8 or something like that. So we got a little more than halfway there and we just couldn’t raise anymore. I put up a 50K EMD. We probably spent another 50K in legal fees and inspections and all these other things, and we ended up having to pull out of the deal because we couldn’t finish the raise.
Luckily, I was able to get my 50K EMD back, but the other 50K that I spent on legal fees and all that other stuff, that was a sunk cost. So I think there are sometimes risks that you get when you go into some of these deals, but to your point, as long as it’s not a fatal amount of money, take those lumps and use those to be better on the next deal.

Mackenzie:
100%, yeah, completely agree.

Tony:
So I want to take us to our rookie exam, Mackenzie. These are the same three questions we ask every single guest, probably the three most important questions you’ll ever be asked in your life. So are you ready for question number one?

Mackenzie:
I’m so ready. Let’s go.

Tony:
All right. What’s one actionable thing rookies should do after listening to your episode?

Mackenzie:
Go do something. I don’t care what it is. Just go do something. I feel like we take so long … Pace Morby, actually, my favorite. He has a story of he talks to somebody, he goes, “Man, I’ve been working for …” I think it’s like three years, four years, “and I haven’t gotten my first deal.” What are you talking about? Go find a deal. Go do something. Yes, education is great, but you will never know anything. Here I am, I just learned about creative financing two months ago and now I got a subject to deal and it’s amazing. If I hadn’t been open to that or hadn’t acted before I knew everything, I never would’ve started.
So I feel like figure out what it is that you can go start on, whether it’s finding a deal, whether it’s finding a partner, whether it’s finding a contractor, building a contract list, do something to get you closer to your next deal today. That’s what you need to do. Do something. It never works if you don’t work. So just start working.

Ashley:
What is one tool, software or app or system, in your business that you use? You can’t say Google Drive because you already said that one. So what’s another tool that you use in your business?

Mackenzie:
Honestly, this might be a slightly unconventional answer, but Instagram. You guys, you need to be using social media. The power of sharing my journey on social media even when I didn’t have a lot of real estate sales behind me, even when I had no investing experience and I’m winging it on my first flip, use that tool. I feel like when you offer value to people, don’t even say, “Hey, I’m getting into real estate investing. I want to find a partner.” Just start adding value to people and people will come to you because they feel like what you’re giving them, what they’re getting from you is way more than what they’re going to give to you.
So I would absolutely use your social media channels, whether that’s Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, Pinterest, whatever, the new threads, all the other things. Use your social media and just start sharing what you’re doing and share opportunities and start establishing yourself as a professional in real estate. Whatever that is, start becoming the educated voice of reason in all of your followers’ heads, and I think it will absolutely multiply your business and be your partners later in life.

Ashley:
Mackenzie, you make a great point about just sharing your knowledge and you don’t have to have any experience to share what you are learning. So if you’re listening to a podcast, what’s one thing you learned in that podcast? Post about it. You’re reading the new book you’ve just got in the mail, Real Estate Partnerships, post one thing you learned about it when you read that book. So I think that’s great advice.

Mackenzie:
I feel like everyone feels like they need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to social media and they need to know it all. I think you just need to remember that you probably know 1% more about whatever topic you’re talking about than most of your network does, especially when it comes to real estate investing. So even it’s that you just read the Real Estate Partnerships book and you got one quote and you put it on there or use ChatGPT. It’s not cheating. Use ChatGPT and share that knowledge with people. So I completely agree. You don’t have to know it all. Just share something and you probably know one more percent than everyone else.

Tony:
I think the other challenge people have is that they’re thinking about the wrong person when they’re creating content. When I post something on my Instagram, I’m not posting to educate Ashley about real estate investing. I’m not trying to impress her with my knowledge. I’m trying to give information to the person that doesn’t have that. So I think if you reframe who your audience is, it makes it a little bit easier to be transparent and vulnerable on social. All right. Last question for you here, Mackenzie. Where do you plan on being five years from now?

Mackenzie:
Ooh, that’s such a good question. It’s a good time that you asked, actually. I just reevaluated where I want to be. I’ll give you my three year, two and a half year plan, okay? So I’m 27 years old. This is fun fact. You know the whole golden birthday where you turn whatever year on your day? So I will turn 30 January 30th, 2020, oh, gosh, six, okay? So in about two and a half years, my golden birthday I’ll be 30. My goal is to increase my rental cashflow to replace my real estate sales income right now.
So buildup, it depends on the cashflow, it equates to around 20 doors, but it depends if cashflow is higher. So that’s my goal is to make enough income from my rentals every day over the top on top of expenses, so what I’m taking home after all my partnerships is enough to replace my real estate sales income. Then I do run a team here, and so my goal with that is then to be able to feed my team more deals, give them more opportunities. They love sales, they love that. So if I can give them more deals and I can focus on more of the real estate investing, it’ll free up a little bit more time for my family. My town will be my own. I can travel more, do all of that, create that financial independence life. So that’s my goal, I guess, financial independence by my 30th birthday.

Tony:
Well, Mackenzie, it’s been an absolute pleasure getting to dive into your story. I know I picked up a few things in our conversation as well, but before we wrap things up, I want to give a shout out to this week’s Rookie Rockstar. This week’s rockstar is Mimi Fenton, and Mimi says, “This is a really proud moment. We just closed on our first multifamily. I’ve been dying to get into multifamily for years, but felt so restricted by living in an expensive city and not having the capital. So I just followed the Zillow map until I hit areas with multifamily properties I could afford and then identified which of these had the best rents.” She finishes off by saying, “You can’t sit on the sidelines and plan. You have to jump in even if you don’t think you’re ready.” So Mimi, congratulations to you and can’t wait to hopefully get you on the podcast one day and you can tell us more about how you made those multifamily properties happen.

Ashley:
Mackenzie, thank you so much for taking the time to join us here today. Mackenzie and I had actually met at AJ Osborne’s conference in Boise, Idaho, and we got to talking and I just knew you would give tremendous value. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. We really appreciate it.

Mackenzie:
Thank you so much for having me.

Ashley:
Yeah, you’re welcome. Can you let everyone know where they can reach out to you and find out some more information about you?

Mackenzie:
You can follow me on Instagram and TikTok. I’m also on Facebook. My name’s just Mackenzie Brogdon. I’m sure you’ll see it here in the comments. On Instagram and TikTok, it’s Mackenzie Brogdon Realtor. That’s it. Everybody will find me. I’m also on threads now, testing that out to see how that goes. So Mackenzie Brogdon Realtor anywhere you can find me and I’d love to chat and connect with you all. So thank you Ashley and Tony so much for having me. It’s an honor to share my story. I hope it can inspire even one person listening to this to go out and do something and get your first deal.

Ashley:
Okay. So you guys, give Mackenzie a follow and let her know how she has inspired you today to get your first or even your next deal.
I’m Ashley, @WealthFromRentals, and he is Tony J Robinson, @TonyJRobinson, and we will be back on Saturday with a rookie reply.

Robert Shiller, Case-Shiller Index co-founder and professor of economics at Yale University, joins ‘The Exchange’ to discuss housing supply pressures on housing inventory keeping prices high, the Case-Shiller Index’s estimates for future home prices, and the impact regulations on Airbnb and the secondary home rental market will have on supply.

As inflation continues to take its toll on the economy, many professionals are looking for ways to increase their income. While some may choose to take their talents elsewhere and seek a higher-paying job, or even add on to their workload by taking on a potentially lucrative side hustle, others are content with their current career of choice and would rather earn their bump in pay another way: a raise.

However, unlike applying for a new position at another company, the path to achieving a salary increase at your current job may not feel as clear. That’s why we asked nine members of Young Entrepreneur Council to share their best tips for how to successfully negotiate a salary increase and why doing so can help you get the increase in pay you deserve.

1. Build A Clear Case For Why You Deserve It

Asking for a salary increase because you’ve “been here a while” or because someone else got one won’t get you far, but proactively presenting hard evidence of the impact your work has had on business KPIs can be a very effective strategy. If possible, come prepared with data demonstrating how your efforts contributed to increases in sales or conversions, retention, traffic or engagement and more. If your role is not directly tied to metrics, be sure to provide positive customer or colleague feedback. Not only will this demonstrate your value to the company, but it will also make it easier on your manager to advocate for you to upper management. – Samuel Saxton, ConsumerRating.org

2. Do Your Homework On The Market

When it comes to negotiating a higher salary, do your homework! Take some time to research and gather market data on what others in your position and industry are earning. Having this solid evidence on your side allows you to confidently explain why you deserve better compensation based on industry standards and the value you bring to the table. When you’re armed with factual data, it becomes harder for your employer to brush off or underestimate your contributions. Plus, by comparing your current salary to similar roles, you can build a strong case for a salary adjustment. Taking this strategic and professional approach shows that you’ve done your due diligence, making it more likely for your negotiation to end successfully. – Jennifer A Barnes, Optima Office, Inc.

3. Focus On The Positive Outcomes You’ve Achieved

You work hard, but the bottom line is real outcomes. During any discussion about salary, show the specific and positive changes you have made, especially any during an economic downturn. If you’re able to detail and quantify the impact you have at your job in positive terms, you’re more likely to receive a positive response, even in challenging times. For example, bring specific cases of how you’ve improved workflow, increased sales, improved traffic or attracted more clients. Using data to quantify your positive outcomes helps present your case in more logical and concrete ways. If your raise request is denied, ask for a salary review after a specific time and ask what quantifiable benchmarks you need to reach to get the raise you deserve. – Shu Saito, SpiroPure

4. Put Yourself In Your Employer’s Shoes

Put yourself in your employer’s shoes! This will help you come up with solid reasons as to why you should get that raise and why your employer might be willing to give it to you. With this in mind, you can think from your employer’s perspective. What are you bringing to the table that is of great value to them? What is your unique contribution? How has your work contributed to your company’s bottom line? By focusing on how your employer benefits, you will be able to discuss points they are interested in and they need to pay attention to, making your odds of a successful negotiation greater. – Riccardo Conte, Virtus Flow

5. Focus On The Value You Bring

One tip for successfully negotiating a salary increase is to gather evidence of your value and contributions to the company. Document your achievements and quantify results whenever possible. Research market rates to provide context for your negotiation. Align your contributions with the company’s goals and emphasize the positive impact you’ve made. Prepare a compelling case that connects your achievements, market research and alignment with company objectives. Choose an appropriate time to discuss the increase and approach the conversation professionally. Presenting evidence strengthens your position, increases credibility and improves your chances of a successful negotiation. – Jared Weitz, United Capital Source Inc.

6. Align Your Skills With Your Job Description

One effective tip for negotiating a salary increase is to highlight how your skills align with the job description. By emphasizing the direct correlation between your abilities and the requirements of the role, you demonstrate your value and worth to the organization. This approach is useful because it provides tangible evidence of your capabilities, making it difficult for employers to overlook your contributions and the impact you can have on their success. By showcasing your skills alignment, you position yourself as a valuable asset deserving of a higher salary, increasing your chances of a successful negotiation. – Pratik Chaskar, Spectra

7. Think About The ‘Why’

When negotiating your salary, always focus on the “why” aspect, because that’s what follows after you’ve stated your demands. So, work on your response to the why. Why should your employer increase your salary? Is it because of the current market conditions, better salaries offered by competitors for similar roles or your past accomplishments? The reasons could be one or many. So, come up with a solid response to the “why” and it could turn the odds in your favor. – Jared Atchison, WPForms

8. Be Prepared To Answer Tough Questions

Want a better salary? You better be prepared. This could involve answering tough questions from your employer about why they should give you the raise or why you deserve a salary increase. Too many employees make the mistake of asking for a raise just for the sake of it. The ones who successfully negotiate higher rates maintain lists of talking points that establish their value. So, be ready to put everything you can offer on the table and do some research about the person you need to win over, including their limitations and their weak points. Preparation is useful because it helps you answer tough questions that may expose your weaknesses. It shows your employer that you’ve put thought and effort into what you’re asking, giving you more bargaining power. – Bryce Welker, Crush The CPA Exam

9. Let Your Achievements Do The Talking

To successfully negotiate your salary, it’s essential that you know how to showcase your skills and capabilities to let employers know your true worth. This doesn’t mean just filling up your resume but instead letting your accomplishments speak for themselves. In a nutshell, rather than worrying about hacks or shortcuts to negotiate your salary, just focus on your area of expertise, excel in it and let your achievements do all the talking. – Stephanie Wells, Formidable Forms

David:
This is the BiggerPockets Podcast show 811.

Mark:
So when everybody zigs, you zag. And so when the world does become a copy and paste, everybody’s doing SMS, everybody’s doing email, when everybody’s just relying on automation, what can you zag instead of what everybody’s zig?

David:
What’s going on everyone? It’s David Green, your host of the BiggerPockets Real Estate podcast here today with my co-host Rob Abasolo, who will actually be taking over the reigns and hosting today’s show. Or is it Rob? It might be a deep fake that we’re throwing at you. Listen to the show and let us know in the comments if you think this was real Rob or AI Rob. Today’s show is all about artificial intelligence, how it can hurt your real estate business, how it can help your real estate business, how it can make you money or lose you money, all that and more. And we’ve brought in some help. We’re joined by Mark Simpson of Boostly, who shares his thoughts on how he’s using AI to help his business and give customers a better experience. And Rob actually says a few intelligent things in today’s episode as well. Rob, you’re more than just a pretty face who’s losing a lot of weight, getting tan and putting on muscle. How are you today?

Rob:
I am doing good, David. Thank you for asking. I am doing swell. I’m going to Las Vegas tomorrow and I’m excited because I’m going to go see a Dell, the real version.

David:
Which Dell are you going to see?

Rob:
The first one, the first and only. I’m going to look at a Dell computer. I’ve been taking this purchase very serious.

David:
Is this the farmer in the Dell? What is the Dell that the farmer goes to? Do you know what that is?

Rob:
I don’t know what that is.

David:
Let us know that in comments as well. If anyone knows what the Dell is that the farmer is using. Rob in today’s show, what should people keep an eye out for that will help them in their business or maybe help them avoid potential pitfalls that could cost them money in their business?

Rob:
So I think we’re talking about a few AI tools here and a few other tools that would help you optimize your business, but giving you actual practical use cases for your business, whether it be real estate or anything else. But specifically I think that today’s message is we’re not here to replace ourselves. We’re not here to replace our employees. We’re not trying to take jobs or cut our team. We are trying to enhance ourselves to be the most efficient and optimal version of our business selves so that hopefully our business can make more money.

David:
That’s the name of the game. Before we get to the show, our quick tip is if you want to grow your business, consider getting a CRM. The idea is you need to manage your customers and your clients and the people that you want to do business with so that you can be organized and systematic in the way that you stay in touch with them. If you’ve been trying to keep it all in your head or on an Excel spreadsheet, stop. Look into getting a CRM and become a professional in the real estate space, not an amateur. All right, let’s talk some AI in real estate.

Rob:
In a not so distant future, when AI rules the land, these three investors are out to get properties with a vengeance. Machine learning has cornered the market. So how will these vigilant investors survive, David?

David:
So if you two are skeptical about AI, you are not alone. In fact, I’ll go so far as to say people are already abusing AI. I get tons of messages in my Instagram account every single day from people that are wanting to use artificial intelligence to edit my videos and charge me for it. I will reach out to people asking for something and I’m clearly talking with a chat robot that I don’t want to be talking to. That’s stalling for time. Companies are bragging about artificial intelligence, putting them on the cutting edge, but we’re talking about technology that doesn’t work very well, and it’s replacing the human element. If you think about when you go stay at a Airbnb or at even a hotel, if there’s nobody to check you in, we’ll frequently brag about how AI has gotten us out of the business, but we never think about it from the perspective of the client.
That’s the thing that I just want everyone to keep in mind. When you’re looking at a new form of technology or a business opportunity, it is very easy to look at how it’ll benefit you. But as a business owner, we build our business on the foundation of the client. Rob frequently talks about adding amenities to short-term rentals to give a better experience to the client. You’re trying to design a house so that the client would be happy with it. Well, if the client isn’t happy when they’re trying to check in and there’s no one they can talk to, they’re probably going to leave you a bad review and it’s going to cost money.
And AI is not going to smooth out an angry person like a human being could that can give empathy and share concern. And not to make this personal, but I was hanging out with Brandon Turner who was bragging about how much he loves ChatGPT, and he asked ChatGPT what type of animal I would be, and it said an owl, and I wasn’t super thrilled about that. I was looking for a lion, possibly a grizzly bear, something a little more majestic like a Griffin. I just wasn’t happy about being called an owl, and I can admit that that might have colored me a little irritated with ChatGPT.

Rob:
Well, thank you for that Black Mirror episode, David. I’d tell you to pitch it to Netflix, but a bot probably already has. Mark Simpson from Boostly, how you doing, man? After hearing DG out, is there anything that you’d like to say as a rebuttal?

Mark:
Well, hello. Thank you for having me back. It’s an absolute pleasure. But yeah, I am coming into this episode as somebody who’s a massive fan of AI and I’m excited to share a few things. But in terms of a rebuttal, I would say this is that number one, when it comes to people stopping using their brains, we are programmed as humans to only make certain amount of decisions a day. And I’ve been doing everything in my day-to-day to try and cut down on how many decisions I need to be making. And if we can have a tool that can help us with said decisions, whether it is, what are you going to order for your groceries, what are you going to watch tonight? Or if it’s something more business related in terms of organizing your to-do list, et cetera, I am all for that.
And I actually think that it’s not going to stop us as humans wanting to talk to other humans. If anything, I feel like what’s going to happen with all of this is it’s going to encourage and help us relate more to more people, meet more people, do more things and become better because of it. And I will end with this, is that the cream always rises to the top. I think this tool and AI is going to eliminate 90% of Fiverr. It’s going to eliminate 90% of Upwork, but there’s a lot of crap on Upwork. There’s a lot of people who are crap at what they do, but the cream will always rise to the top.
So what will happen is the best people in their field will rise to the top and they’ll be the ones who can command more money, they’ll get more gigs, and that’ll be the offset of this. I think that there’s nothing but positives to come from it, but I do agree with David on one thing is that we can’t just come to a world of copy and paste. We can’t just blindly go down this road. AI will get us 80% of the way there and we have to use 20% of our own intuition, creativity, brain source to get us to the full 100%. So I’m excited to dig into a few things today.

Rob:
Yeah, I mean today we’re going to talk about actual tools out there that can help you with your real estate business, and we’re going to get into things like relationship management, design, remodeling, operations. There are also a ton of tools out there that we won’t cover today. So if there’s a particular part of the deal flow you’re struggling with, whether it be deal analysis or comping in general, et cetera, we’ll list some of those tools in the show notes for you. Or you can just ask Mark Simpson what he would use because he is the AI expert here.
And then just a quick side note here, BP does not officially endorse any of these products. These are all just anecdotal things that we have used in the past that we like, and there’s a huge landscape, hundreds of different tools out there. We’re just talking about some of the ones that we’ve come across in our journeys. So let’s get into it. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with Mark, you’re first up, and basically we want to know what is your favorite AI tool that you’re using right now to optimize to make your business more efficient, run more smoothly?

Mark:
So my tool is Tavus, and I’ll have to spell it for you because my British accent. So it’s T-A-V-U-S.io. And Tavus is a marketing lead gen sales tool that everybody can go ahead and use right now. The main way that I use it in the business is I record a video right now to the camera and it takes me 10 minutes to record that video. That 10 minute video, I can then send out to 2000 people, 10,000 people in literally one minute. And the way that it works is that as I’m talking into the camera, AI is looking at my facial expressions, it’s following my mouth, it’s looking at my movements. And what I do on the other end is once I’ve finished that video, I will upload a list of contacts that I want to reach out to. And all I have to do is insert tags.
Just like when you’re sending an email to somebody, if you’re going to do a big blast for your CRM, you’ll replace first name. And for example, say I’m going to send a message to Rob and to David, I just have to do in one video that video pitch and it’ll be two minutes, three minutes, and I could talk about anything. For Boostly obviously I’m promoting what we do here at Boostly when it comes to direct bookings, but if you’ve got your real estate hat on and say you want to get in front of a load of realtors, estate agents, et cetera, you can use it for that. And so you record one video, it’ll take 10 minutes to learn you. That video is a maximum of two minutes of your time, and I can then bless that out to thousands upon thousands of people with no extra effort on my end.

Rob:
And what’s the time that it took to integrate? What was the learning curve for using this tool?

Mark:
Learning time, the main thing that I had to learn personally was how to speak into a camera and read a script because I didn’t know the any thing.

Rob:
Harder than it looks.

Mark:
Harder than it looks. It’s not a one-stop shop, but as soon as you’ve figured that out, the tool does everything for you. So as far as what I had to implement, I just had to create the script, record the video, send it off to Tavus. They did all their things and then I just had to integrate the link that they gave me into my CRM. So for example, I use ActiveCampaign for sending out emails. I use close.com to send out SMSs. I just had to take that link and put it in and it took me maybe a couple of days to get used to. So all in all, let’s just say a week to get it all turned around, but now it is all automated, so it’s all in the business.

Rob:
And what were the results from using this?

Mark:
So we pay $275 a month to use this service, so let’s just call three grand over a course of a year. And the ROI has been well over six figures in revenue coming in on the back of it from what we were doing before. Obviously the caveat is that video has to be good. You can’t just be spouting out nonsense for two minutes, it’s got to be a good video, well put together, et cetera. But we’ve been able to fine tune it, create it, and it has been generating some really good results from us personally. And I can see not just how I use it with my Boostly hat on, but I can see how a host could use it, whether it’s SDR, MTR strategy, even real estate investors, et cetera, going for some big deals, et cetera. So it’s very, very powerful tool and I encourage everybody to check it out.

Rob:
And would you say that this tool is more for a newbie, for someone that’s kind of an intermediate right in the throes of their business or the advanced I guess technologically savvy investor?

Mark:
I would say a newbie. Anybody can use this. It’s more budget. Can you put together $300 a month to use this? If you can’t stretch that far then obviously it’s not for you, try something else, you’d have to eat glass for a little while and do it manually yourself. But as soon as you’ve got that extra revenue in your business, doesn’t matter what level you feel that you are at technically or mindset wise, you can easily do this. All you have to do is have a camera. You can even have your webcam if you want, and just record a video and just talk. As long as you can talk, you can do this tool.

Rob:
All right, so do you see a use case in your business for this? It sounds like yes. But is there any reason why you would still have a human do this work? Even if let’s say you don’t want to do it anymore, you’re running the company, would it ever make sense to just hire someone to kind of run with this aspect of the support, the legion and everything like that?

Mark:
Well, for me, we’ve got 44 members of staff at Boostly and I would never put somebody on this task, particularly because I’m all for utilizing AI to free up their time. And there’s much more important tasks I personally feel like my team can be doing than doing this. Because again, if they’re going to record a video every single time somebody comes through to Boostly, they’ll be full up all day and they’ll get bored doing it. Unless they’ll come to me and say, “Mark, I don’t want to record this video for the a thousandth time, will you stop doing it?” So for me, I would never put a human onto this task. I’d much rather be doing something more proactive with their time. So I’d much rather have an AI do this tool.

Rob:
I think there’s a lot of interesting use cases here. I see it from the standpoint of let’s say a real estate meetup. If I throw a real estate meetup and I go through the trouble of creating let’s say an Eventbrite and capturing all the emails of the people that register to go to my meetup, I could in theory create a video that gets sent out to each person via text or via email that’s, “Hey Mark, it was so great meeting and connecting with you at the meetup. Don’t forget, I’m looking for a lead in this buy box for this type of investment. Please keep me in mind anytime that you’re looking to offload a deal.” Or something like that. And basically it allows me to reach, based on what you’re saying, a massive amount of people. Now from the AI standpoint, is it basically that they’re capturing my vocal sounds and tonalities?

Mark:
So in that 10 minutes that you are training the tool, you are literally reading a script that they’ve provided for me and what they’re doing in those 10 minutes is that they’re seeing how my face moves when I talk, the accent and the words how I speak.

Rob:
The diction, yeah.

Mark:
The diction, all of that, and it’s taken all of that and it’s training it all up. So when I record the actual script for the video for the woman video, just the example that you say there, when I go to say, for example, instead of me saying, “Hey Rob.” I’ll just say, “Hey, first name.” And when the video’s being put together on the script that we create, I insert the tags just like you would do on an email blast out, you’ll go, “Hey David, hey Rob.” And it makes that email look personal, but instead of it being an email, it’s literally in a video and it’s getting all of that information from the data that you put into that list. So basically you upload a list, sync it with your CRM, wherever you get the information from, however you acquire that information, you load it in and Tavus takes all of that and matches it all together and spits out a quality video.

Rob:
Okay, that’s cool. So David, you run a really large real estate team. Are you convinced, is this a tool that you would possibly encourage the team to use to create these mass videos to send out as follow-ups to all of your client base?

David:
In a situation like this, yeah. In fact, I used to do this when I would hold open houses before I was hosting the podcast, I was just an average realtor trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents, and I would go hold open houses every weekend. I’d do like three or four in a weekend, and then I would do exactly what Mark said. I would send a video of me saying, “Hey, it was so nice meeting you at the open house. This is a reminder of what we talked about. I’ll be reaching out somewhere else.” Because everyone’s used to just brushing off realtors, they’re annoying, but when you get a video, it’s so tempting. You just really want to touch that button and you want to see what might be in there. I’m curious though, Mark, how is what you’re describing, how would it play out practically different than if I just recorded a video and sent it to somebody?

Mark:
Well, if you’re going to do it on a singular level, do it on a singular level. This is to be acquired at scale, and I assume now in the levels of your careers that you’ve both had, you’ve got a lot more leads, et cetera, coming into your inbox on a day-to-day basis. So this is to be acquired at scale. If you’ve just got five videos to send, say you’ve done an open house and there’s five people, just send five videos. But this is something that you can definitely do for 100, 200, 300,000, 10,000.

David:
Yeah, I like that because if it’s not replacing something a human did, it’s not like, well, I don’t want to have to do work, so let me use AI, that’s usually where I get anti artificial intelligence. If it is enhancing something that a person would already do, that’s a different story.

Rob:
I mean, one of the things that Alex Hormozi talked about in our recent episode with them is that one of the biggest weaknesses basically in any business is the follow-up. And so really seems like this tool can come in handy for that. One quick question and then we’ll move on. Does it have any shortcomings such as like is it ever like, “Hello Mark.” And it kind of sounds computery whenever it’s trying to read things like names and then goes back to the AI generated sound or is it pretty seamless?

Mark:
It’s pretty spot on. The one time it’s had its shortcoming is when somebody signed up to get something from us and they put their name in as Seymour Butts and so the AI literally sent him a video saying, “Hey, Seymour Butts.” It went on that one.

Rob:
Yeah. So you talked about lead gen at the beginning of this. What is an aspect where you could use this for lead gen? Can you give us some actual practical use cases there?

Mark:
So in terms of actual lead gen, let’s just say for example-

Rob:
And that’s lead generation, that’s short for lead generation. That basically, right, right, sorry, I want to clarify for any listeners because not everyone may be up to speed on marketing lingo, although that one’s pretty straightforward, but this is basically the idea of creating leads for your business, right?

Mark:
Yeah, 100%. So I’ll show you how I used it for our business and then I can give an example how somebody else could use it for their business. Let’s talk like an MTR strategy. So for what we did, we were able to find a lot of property owners, hospitality hosts who were situated in an area of the United Kingdom, Manchester. What we did is we then went along and we found their websites and on their websites were able to get their email address, first name, phone number. What we then did is we basically put that into a Google Sheet, we uploaded it to Tavus. I created one of my super quick one minute videos.
It was just basically saying, “Hey Rob, hope you’re doing well, just to let you know that we are a business here that’s helping direct bookings.” Yada yada, yada. One minute, sent it out, we sent it to that list, and on the back of that, I think we found about 100 that we were able to scrape together. On the back of that, we had 10 people get back in touch with us and they then booked a call and went from there. So in terms of lead gen, instead of me just getting those bits together, blasting out a list, we’re able to use it to then made our outreach a lot more stronger.

Rob:
So that’s pretty interesting. So David, I wonder if that would work in the off market side of things. If you are sending text messages out to owners of distressed properties saying like, “Hey Mark, I see that you own 111 Main Street and I wanted to just see, are you interested in selling this property? Me and my team buy homes cash.” Or something like that. You could then effectively pull lists from, I guess, I don’t know, privy batch leads, wherever you can skip trace and effectively blast out to people. If you’re looking for an off-market deal, is that a use case that, I don’t know would make sense, David, you think?

David:
Since we started recording this podcast approximately 22 minutes ago, I’ve received three text messages like you just said, asking me if I want to sell one of my properties, which is annoying AF as the kids would say. So I don’t know if I’m a huge fan of the blast, the text to everybody thing. I see how it’s effective and some people it’s working, otherwise people wouldn’t do it, but it’s also a bit intrusive, someone’s phone is sacred in a way. Usually you give your number out to somebody and say, “Hey, you are allowed to contact me.” So I get kind of weird when you get into intruding into that world. But if you have a list of people that have already said, “Hey, I’m interested in learning from you Rob built.” Or, “I’m interested in learning from you, Mr. Boostly.” Or, “David Green 24.” I think that that’s a great idea. This makes it easier to communicate with the database of people, kind of your pool that you’ve already put together.

Rob:
No, that’s very true. I mean, I don’t really mass market in that capacity, but it does seem, I do wonder if it would be less annoying if you got a video. Instead of getting a text that’s, “Hey, David Green, I’ll buy your house cash.” If it was a video from someone then it makes them more human, but I mean either way, that method, I can totally see why it’s annoying. Maybe people can use it to create videos and send you on Instagram and ask you to edit your podcast down for TikTok.

David:
Wouldn’t it be funny if they use the AI to message me on Instagram to ask me if they can edit videos, which they will then be using AI to do, which is zero time for them. That right there, Rob, is why I have my bias towards AI. It’s all these 21 year olds messaging me that they’ll edit my short four videos, but they’re using AI to do it so they’re not working.

Rob:
Hey David, I have a couple of ideas for how to go viral. Are you open to a chat? Would you be totally against chatting?

David:
Are you open to a conversation about how we could add seven figures to your business with no work on your end at all?

Rob:
Your business every month. Yeah, oh yeah, that’s 2023 for you on Instagram. Well, before we move on, Mark, is there anything else that you’ve used in your company that may get an honorable mention here?

Mark:
We’ve used one more tool, and this is a tool that we actually created within Boostly. So as we were putting together nicksleeps.com, we, which is obviously Rob’s business, we needed to get together all of the property information and a big time suck in our business was getting the property information from say an Airbnb listing and taking it over to our world, which is the Boostly WordPress website. And what we did is one thing that ChatGPT and this AI is fantastic for is creating code, perfecting code.
And we worked with a programmer who utilized AI to put together a tool and we called it the Boostly Scraper, where we could scrape all of the information that was on your Airbnb listing, which was your pitches, availability, wording, all that cool stuff, and we could drag it in with a click of a button to our Boostly website. All in all, this saved 12 hours of time manually doing it and we could do it in a space of a couple of minutes once we’ve created the actual tool.

Rob:
Yeah, yeah, that’s good. I was surprised. I was like, “Wow, this is all my information. How did he get it so fast? Did they just copy and paste everything? That must’ve taken hours.”

Mark:
It was all done in the case of a minute. And so now we’ve rolled it out to all of our sites and this tool now is called the Boostly Scraper and it’s built into every single one that we do. So I think this tool is available for all, and the cool thing is you don’t need to be a master programmer to be able to use this tool. We’re able to create code just by asking it to do things. And it doesn’t matter whether you’re using ChatGPT or Bard, which is the Google version or Claude, which is a new one that’s coming out. They all help you get there. And this is the thing for me is that it helps you get to where you need to be. It’s like having the best intern in the world available 24/7, doesn’t sleep, doesn’t complain. And we’ve been able to take that into Boostly and with what we’re doing.

Rob:
Yeah, that’s super interesting. Well, awesome. Yeah, thank you for all your work on Nick Sleeps, man. Looks really great. Excited to launch that. Let’s move into pitch number two, which is going to be me.

David:
To be frank, Rob, your accent doesn’t sound nearly as cool or trusting as Mark’s. As a side note, as soon as Mark started talking, I’m like, “If I have to debate him, I’m going to lose.” Because his accent just sounds so trustworthy. Everything sounds smarter when it’s coming from a Brit. So rather than ask you each question, I’m going to have you pitch me on how you see AI playing a role in your business.

Rob:
Sure. So there’s a couple of areas that I think I’m starting to utilize it more and more in my business, but right now the area that I am trying to cover at a bit more of a quicker rate is design. And I’m not trying to outsource it completely, I’m just trying to use it to get ideas to generate my creativity, but I’m not completely relying on AI. But at the end of the day, with the amount of flips that we’re doing with the amount of remodels, with the amount of Airbnbs that we’re setting up, quick design is really needed so that we can start just running with our ideas.
So the tool that I’ve come across is one that I call, well, I don’t call it, so the tool that I’ve come across is called REImagine Home. I think it’s reimaginehome.ai, and there’s also another one called Remodeled AI. They both do very similar thing. And effectively what you can do with REImagine Home is you can actually upload a photo of the exterior of your home or the backyard of your home and you can give it parameters of what you’re looking to do. So if you want to re-landscape the front yard because it’s all dead sod, this is something that’s happening right now with one of my flips, I don’t really, I’m not a landscaper. This is not something I’m good at designing. I’m able to do it, but it’s just not my strength.
So I can upload this photo and basically give it parameters like I want a native landscape, I want 20% sod, I want concrete pavers, I want black gravel. And you can give it some of these guardrails and it’ll basically spit out within seconds an entire, I guess, AI generated photo of a brand new front yard superimposed on the photo that you uploaded. And it’s actually pretty cool because if you’re trying to get a quote from a landscaper, as you know when you’re talking to contractors, a lot of things can be lost when you’re trying to describe a concept without any visuals. So what I like about this is it allows me to get an idea on paper that I can then hand to a landscaper and say, “Hey, can you give me a quote on exactly what you see here.” Versus, “Can you give me a quote on exactly what you think I’m asking you to get me a quote on?”
So it cuts out a lot of the back and forth, but it also does this for interiors too. This is what I really like about it. If you want to understand what your space could possibly look like, you can upload a photo of a living room, you can upload a photo of a game room of a bedroom, and you can also put the different styles. Do you want a Bohemian chic style? Do you want a mid-century modern style? Basically click a button and it’ll completely furnish it with that style of furniture. And there’s even some design things that you can do with the actual structural components as well. So again, I’m not using it exactly to furnish my places, but it is a really good way to get really quick comps of what your property will look at so that you can start saying, “Hey, I don’t like that. Let’s swap it out for this.”

David:
And communicate clearly with someone else who’s going to be, “This is what I want it to look like, go.”

Rob:
Yeah, I can basically hand that to a designer and say, “Hey, I really like this mood board. I’m not trying to replace you with AI. Just try to bring something to the table. Can you make a better version of this?” Because ultimately it’s not like that designer can go and buy that furniture because it’s all AI generated, so they have to go and make selections based on the mood board that I give them. So honestly, the time that it took to integrate, five minutes.
And the cool thing is when you generate that image, if you don’t like it, you just hit next and it’ll generate another one and another one and another one. And it’s limitless opportunities and you just have to be good at prompting it and making your criteria more specific. Learning curve, I don’t know. I think if you mess around with it for 30 minutes, you’ll pretty much be as good as you can be at that program or that platform. And from a results standpoint, I’m just glad I don’t have to sketch really bad stick figures on paper anymore. I can just actually hand something that actually looks professionally designed.

Mark:
I think you said something really important, I think for everybody to take away from this, it’s the quality of the prompt, which is the quality of the command that you are asking said robot to do. That’s so key. The problem is that majority of people that test this technology for the first time, they put in a prompt or a question or a command that’s one sentence, which is crap, it’s nothing. It’s imagine having a worker in front of you, a member of your staff and you say, “Design me this based on this.” And they’ll look at you like, okay, and they’ll come back with a stick figure like what you’re talking about. But if you can properly give it a really cool command with plenty of detail, don’t forget to say please and thank you, because when they eventually do take over the world, they’ll come back to you.

Rob:
You want them to remember you.

Mark:
Yeah, we’ll remember you. And then the better the command, the better the prompt, the better what you get back. And that’s really, really, really crucial in everything that you are going to go away and do after watching this episode.

Rob:
For sure, man, I did a YouTube video on how I use Chat GPT to write my Airbnb listing copy, and I use it to write my copy, I use it to write my title, but it was superfast. It can spit it out in seconds, but I spent a solid hour tinkering around, say this, make it more casual, make it funnier, punch it up. It’s such a process with AI. I think that’s the big skill right now is not just using AI to replace yourself, but it’s how well can you prompt it to basically do what you would do if you had the ability to do it as fast as AI could do. Does that make sense?

David:
Yeah, it’s funny because you’re describing that if you want to use AI, you actually have to build the skill in using AI, which is what everyone is excited, oh, AI is going to do things so I don’t have to be skilled at using it, but it might be even worse. It might be, no, the people that are good at using AI are going to destroy all the people that are not good at using it.

Rob:
Pretty much. That’s kind of how I feel. Not quite as dramatic yet, but I do think effectively we’re all going to be puppet masters of AI. That’s where I think it becomes a thing in the real estate world is we’re not replacing ourselves, we are just puppeteers, if you will, of all these different AI things that make our business more efficient. That’s how I feel.

Mark:
Sounds like an Avengers movie.

David:
It does sound a lot like Ultron actually.

Mark:
Yeah, Ultron, yeah, That’s me.

David:
If James Spader did the voice of ChatGPT, people would freak out. All right, before we move on, Rob, tell me briefly who is this for?

Rob:
Well, keep in mind that people who like to design are always going to design. So we’re not trying to replace the designers, but I would say, I’m not going to say the majority, but there’s a large part of real estate investors that know nothing about design, know nothing about landscape design, know nothing about remodeling the design portion of remodeling a home. And so this tool is for them, and I think it’s whether you’re a newbie or an intermediate or advanced, it can be useful for you. But this really, for a lot of people that are scared to get into rehabbing because they don’t know how to design or there are a lot of people that are scared to get into short-term rentals because they’re like, “I don’t know how to design.” This tool is something that will help you do that so that you can at least communicate with someone that can actually execute on that side of things.
I think an advanced person, I consider myself someone on that end of the spectrum, I’m still using it because instead of me sketching a horrible drawing that I know is that good, I can give it to a contractor and have them quote exactly what they see. And I wouldn’t really say that there’s any shortcomings or surprises of the tool other than it can spit out some pretty luxury premium simulations, if you will. And so a lot of times I’ll be putting stuff in there, I’m like, “Oh, that is way too nice for the budget that I have.”

David:
I didn’t know you could say those words.

Rob:
Yeah, well, you got to be scrappy every so often. But yeah, I’d like to hear from the skeptic himself about some ideas on how to use AI for real estate. David Green, David Timothy Green, I’m just kidding. I don’t know what your nickname is or your middle name, but all right. Do you have a business area that you can cover in terms of a use case where you could see AI helping?

David:
Why was Timothy so funny? I think I was watching an episode of the Office where they called Jim Jimothy, which was so stupid but funny at the same time. That might be what’s in my head.

Rob:
Technical Timothy as one would say.

David:
Maybe that’s where my middle name comes from. All right, so the question was how do I see AI working out in operations? This is something that I think would be very useful and I’m not as disparaging of it within the context of follow-up for operations. I don’t love it in sales. I don’t love AI replacing me talking to a human and solving their problems. I don’t want to call and ask someone a question and get put on a phone tree. I don’t want to chat with a robot when I could have a human being there. I don’t mind as much if AI is doing the work that the client never actually sees, organizing schedules.
I could see logistically speaking hotels could use AI. So when somebody calls in sick, AI automatically figures out like let’s send a text message out to the employees, see who could work it, slot them in, have them check something to say, “Yes, I’m agreeing to work and now you don’t need management to do it.” I think that could be smart. So I’d like to see this take place within CRMs. These are the database managers. I believe it stands for customer relationship manager that most businesses use to organize their activity. So this would be for my real estate business, all the people that I’ve ever closed the house with, all the people that I’ve met at an open house, I collect their information, it goes into a database and then I can reach out to them. I could be reminded to talk to them. I could store information about the last time we spoke.
And when I put them into contract on a home, we have what we call auto plans. We use a CRM called Brivity and that reminds the agent or the transaction coordinator or the showing assistant or whoever it is that needs to know the task, hey, you need to do something. So I’ll create, when we take a listing, if Rob comes to me and says, “Hey David, can you help me sell this giant potato house that I bought in Idaho? It’s done really well as an Airbnb, but it’s time for me to move it on to somebody else and we’re going to sell that house for him.” I don’t want to have to tell an employee every day exactly what to do and I don’t want to trust that employee to remember what they’re supposed to do.
So I create a list of every single thing that goes into selling a house like there’s 25 steps to get the house ready for market. There’s 20 steps once we put it in the MLS, and then there’s maybe 30 steps once the house closes that we don’t forget anything by. Well, not all those steps are done by the same person. So the CRM will automatically shoot out to each person on the team, “Hey, of these 20 steps, these four are yours.” And when this person does their job and they click it done, then the next person gets a reminder that says, “Hey, you should do this.” I can see AI stepping into that world and enhancing that experience so that your employees can’t screw it up.
AI can know, well usually at this point when this thing gets done, somebody should have done this by now and they can send a reminder that says, “Hey, did you do this and forget to check the box.” Or, “Hey, just so you know, you should probably look into this because based on how all of your other escrows are going, this one looks like an outlier.” I also think that AI will be useful for telling me when I should reach out to the client because I think the client still wants the personal touch. They still want their agent talking to them, not a robot, but the robot can tell the agent, “Hey, this person bought a house four years ago. Based on what we see in his estimate, their house has probably gone up 35% in four years. You should reach out and see if they’re ready to buy a bigger house or if they want to downgrade or rates have gone down, you should reach out and talk about a refinance.”
Right now, that’s all in my head and it’s scary to be in my head because all the stuff that’s going on in there, it’d be nice if I could get that into AI’s brain and it could just tell one of us, you should contact this person for these purposes. So I am excited to see how that goes down. I’m nervous because I don’t think that’s what anyone’s thinking about when they’re playing with ChatGPT, they’re not thinking about operations, they’re thinking about sales.

Rob:
What do you think, Mark? Are there any tools that might mirror some of the stuff that he’d be looking for?

Mark:
Not yet. But there are ways that you can implement what you’re talking about from ChatGPT from OpenAI into this. And there are a lot of companies right now that are helping with operations. For example, we use GetCody, so GetCody AI. And what that is doing is that’s building a Boostly bot. So everything that you talked about there where it’s reminding our staff X, Y, and Z, we have that very low end. And what’s really important is we’re recording this in 2023, right now we’re at the first iPhone stage of this technology.
If you look at the first iPhone to iPhone what 15, whatever’s coming out next, it’s so far. We’ve leaped so far in the future of what we can do with these little devices. And we’re at iPhone one stage right now and the crazy thing for me is in less than a year, we have massively got a lot better with this technology and so much so governments are stopping ChatGPT 5 which is the next stage of this from coming out yet because they need to sort of pause and let’s go, “Okay, what are we doing with this?” But there are amazing tools that are available right now at a much lower end.

Rob:
Okay, so effectively it’s a tool, it’s a database where you put in all of your different guests, you put in all of the information about that guest last point of communication notes. And so effectively what you’re saying is a use case eventually will be merging ChatGPT or AI with that CRM to create, I don’t know, AI generated email and follow-up sequences that’s personalized to them specifically based on the notes about that person so that whenever you re-market to them, it actually feels like you’re speaking to them and not just sending out a message to 50,000 people.

Mark:
Yeah, exactly. And say a message comes in and say you get an email and say, “Hey Rob, really would like to come back and stay with you.” When that message comes into you and your team and it’s just, fantastic, who is this person? I remember when I was in our family business, we’d have people message us or send us an email and they came to stay with us five years ago and my mom and my dad and I are like, “Who is this person?” We’re trying to go and we have the standard email that goes about saying, “Hey, yeah, I hope you’re well.” Yada, yada yada.
We didn’t have a clue who they were, but with this tool and this technology, they can go, “Yeah, this is X. They stayed with you these dates, they actually came back and stayed with you a year later. They’ve got husband and wife, two kids, they came from Texas.” Wherever it may be, the information that they can give you. So then you can act and go, “Oh yeah, absolutely, fantastic to hear from you. We’d love to welcome you back.” And all of those sort of things. So it’ll help personalize your communication, your outreach, et cetera. And this can go to you, it can go to your team, it can go to sales, it can go to any department, but this is where AI will be able to help you organize and make your business run much more efficient but much more personalized. I think personalization is the key message to take from all of this.

David:
I got one last question here. I want to play devil’s advocate on one other thing. If this becomes something that becomes standard in the industry and everyone starts using this, and anytime I go stay at an Airbnb, let’s say I stay at eight of them throughout the year and all eight people are sending me all of those same text messages, how do you avoid someone just becoming saturated and blocking and saying, “I don’t want to hear from this.”

Mark:
So when everybody’s zigs you zag, and so when the world does become a copy and paste, everybody’s doing SMS, everybody’s doing email, I think it’s going to become a case in point in time where every single digital message you receive online, the person is going to think, is this a robot sending me this or it’s a human? So what are we going to do? Number one, we go back to the old school, write a letter, pick up the phone and have a conversation with somebody. Do the things at the old school marketing, that’ll be the new school. So instead of sending an SMS, you’ll hand write a letter, pop a little something in the post and send it to the person. I feel like this’ll be where we come to a point in time where it all comes swings and roundabouts. Everything comes back around and when everybody’s just relying on automation, what can you zag instead of where everybody’s zigging?

David:
Isn’t that funny? It’ll be like, remember the hipsters for a while were making it cool to use a walk man, a cassette tape recorder or something. Or they’re like, “I like to stitch my own clothes.” In a future where AI is taken over, the cool person’s going to be the one who hand writes letters because they’re one of the few people in the world that remembers how to use cursive.

Mark:
Exactly.

Rob:
People are going to be surprised whenever they answer the phone and it’s a real person. I think ultimately, if there’s one thing to take away is that AI is here to amplify your capabilities. Whether you’re a small investor, intermediate, advanced, it’s not here to replace you. It is here to be an extra set of hands to help you be more efficient. It’s here to help you create concepts and renders very quickly. It’s basically here to help you follow up and be an actual virtual assistant if you will, like a literal virtual assistant that’s all living on the internet. So there’s a lot of use cases there, but ultimately, if there’s one thing you can take away, it’s not going to replace us. It will make us better if we are willing to use it. That’s my stance. What about you David?

David:
I think it’s going to happen. I think it’s probably going to be messy as we first learn how to do it. I think people are going to rush into it thinking, oh, I don’t have to do stuff anymore. Take their hands off the wheel way too early and you’re going to have a bunch of backlash against it because it’s, “Oh, I don’t have to do this anymore.” Let AI take care of it and you’re going to have a lot of irritated people. There’s be a backlash against AI and I think eventually we’ll settle into what human beings are okay with and then it will become the norm and then we will slowly just give more and more power over because that lure of convenience is always so, so powerful and the world will move into a way where, I don’t know, we’re going a little bit too far with that, but yes, I think AI is going to happen at some point, but the wisest people will be the ones that don’t replace themselves with AI, they enhance themselves.
So the analogy that I give in scale is technology should function like Tony Stark suit of armor in the Avengers. It doesn’t replace him. He doesn’t create a suit of armor to go do the job for him. It enhances what he does. His brain still has to come up with the ideas for the lasers. He can’t shoot a laser as a human, but with the suit of armor, he can. He can take damage in a suit of armor he normally couldn’t take if he didn’t have it, he’d never be able to go compete with a Thanos or something if he was just regular Tony Stark. AI should be used in that similar way. Your creativity, your business skills, your savvy, enhanced by technology will give you an advantage over other people, but trying to replace yourself with those things will just guarantee you’re going to lose.

Rob:
Yeah, well, on that note, David, while we’re here, since we’re wrapping up, I actually went into ChatGPT and I said, can you write an analogy in the style of BiggerPockets, David Green? And it came up with something pretty good. It said, real estate investing is like gardening. You start with the seed, which is your property, you nurture it with care just like you would water and tend to your plants. Over time, it grows and flourishes and you can enjoy the fruits of your labor, whether it’s rental income or property appreciation. Just like in gardening patience and attention to detail in real estate can lead to a bountiful harvest. Boom.

David:
I don’t know if I love that, man. What do you think, Mark? On a scale of one to 10, how good was that analogy?

Mark:
I’m a solid eight on that. I think that’s pretty amazing.

Rob:
I was hoping you would give me a Brazilian juujitsu one, but I guess that’ll be for the follow-up podcast.

David:
But with gardening, I don’t know I’ve ever mentioned gardening before, but hey, not bad. It just means I got to step on my game so ChatGPT can’t be better at being me than me.

Rob:
Exactly, exactly. Well Mark, if people want to learn more about you, find you on the internet, where can people reach out, connect with you?

Mark:
Yeah, 100%. Well, you can see me in person at the upcoming BiggerPockets conference. I’m flying over to Orlando, which I’m excited to do. I’m going to be talking on about direct bookings, so come and check me out there. I’ve actually put together talking about prompts so prompts are really important. I’ve put together 100 quality prompts that you can use on ChatGPT, et cetera. If you want a copy of that, just send me an email [email protected], B-O-O-S-T-L-Y.co.uk and I’ll get that over to you. And if you want to get one of those Tavus videos that I was talking about, just head over to boostly.co uk and follow the links on there.

Rob:
You have opened the flood gates on your email, my friend. What about you, David?

David:
You can find me at davidgreene24.com to see what I got going on or all social media @davidgreene24. Thank you for asking, Rob. Where can people find out about you?

Rob:
You can find me on YouTube and Instagram at Robuilt, R-O-B-U-I-L-T.

David:
Thank you, Mark. We’ve appreciate your time here today. I know you’re British. This is a Scottish accent, but I’m sure this is someone you’re familiar with.

Mark:
It gives me flashbacks to the last episode.

David:
This is David Greene for Rob, baby V Abasolo. Rob, in a copy and paste world, you’re still the baby V that I want to copy. Have a good one, guys.

Spencer Rascoff, Zillow Co-Founder and Pacaso Co-Founder, joins ‘Closing Bell Overtime’ to talk the housing market, Pacaso’s business model, mortgage rates and more.

Kong Fuzi, more famous in the West as Confucious, is arguably the best-known and most influential Chinese philosopher of all time. Despite living two and a half millennia ago, his writings could easily serve as an inspiration and a guide to modern-day startup founders. After all, even though the technology founders deal with is new, the problem of overcoming difficulties and dealing with people is as old as humanity itself.

1. It does not matter how slowly you go as long as you do not stop.

Even in the world of startups in which exponential growth is a crucial factor, overnight success is largely a myth. Before any impressive growth curve usually stands years of effort, experience, and failures.

Consequently, persistence is paramount. Instead of fixating on immediate results, as a founder you should focus on consistent effort and incremental progress. Every step, no matter how small, takes you closer to your goals.

2. I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

A reminder that experience is the only real teacher. This is why as a young startup founder you should seek out the help of mentors and advisers and you should also try to draw experienced professionals into your early startup team.

Moreover, the most profound insights emerge through firsthand experience, allowing you to gain a deeper understanding of your industry and refine your strategies accordingly. It’s usually a bad idea to start a project in a field in which you have no firsthand experience.

3. Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.

Another excellent reminder that in startups (and often in life) failure is inevitable and that resilience is a big part of what distinguishes the successful from the unsuccessful.

4. Wherever you go, go with all your heart.

Successfully taking a startup project from zero to one is extremely hard. Unless you are fully committed, you’d be unlikely to succeed and even if you do – the cost might not be worth it.

5. The object of the superior man is truth.

In business, integrity and honesty are foundational principles. In the long run, your reputation is your most valuable asset, so it’s rarely worth tarnishing it for short-term gains.

More uniquely for startups, however, one of the easiest ways to lose your time and money is to give in to self-deception. That’s why it’s crucial to constantly test your vision and ideas against reality and to adjust your plans based on the feedback that the market is giving you. In that sense, as an early-stage founder, you need to function as a scientist and to hold truth as your number one value and priority.

6. Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change.

Adaptability is a hallmark of successful startups. Confucius’ words highlight the importance of learning and evolving. In the rapidly changing business landscape, founders who remain open to new ideas, market shifts, and feedback are the ones who thrive. Stubbornness inhibits growth, whereas embracing change fosters innovation and resilience.

7. They must often change, who would be constant in happiness or wisdom.

A reminder that success is a journey, rather than a destination. This is more than true for startups, as it is for most things in life.

8. The superior man makes the difficulty to be overcome his first interest; success only comes later.

As a founder, your job is to solve problems. Success takes care of itself if you aim the enterprise in the right direction and if you take care of the challenges put in front of you efficiently.

Second mortgages allow investors to tap into the equity of their existing property holdings. Many investors cash out equity in their rental properties to make other investments. You can use a second mortgage in many ways, including property enhancements, portfolio diversification, or to maximize returns. 

It pays to understand your options about second mortgages because there are other ways to get liquidity, such as cash-out refinancing. Here is what you need to know about second mortgages to consider their suitability for your investment goals. 

What Is a Second Mortgage?

A second mortgage is an additional mortgage loan secured from a property with a primary mortgage. The property serves as collateral for both mortgage loans. Investors who want to access the equity they’ve accrued in a property can use a second mortgage to access funds without liquidating assets. Unlike the initial mortgage used to purchase the property, the proceeds from second mortgage loans aren’t limited to a specific purpose, giving investors greater flexibility for reinvesting the borrowed funds. 

Four Different Types of Second Mortgages   

Second mortgages are available in different types, each with specific features and benefits tailored to investors’ needs and circumstances. Understanding them is essential for investors considering the potential of second mortgages while minimizing risks and maximizing returns. The range of options for a second mortgage includes:

1. Home equity loan

A home equity loan involves borrowing a lump-sum amount against the equity accrued in your property. This type of second mortgage typically comes with a fixed interest rate and a predetermined repayment schedule. 

Home equity loans are attractive to investors for a specific, one-time expense, such as a major renovation project or a significant investment opportunity. The predictability of fixed payments and interest rates with a home equity loan provides stability, so it’s easier to incorporate a home equity loan into your financial planning.

2. Home equity line of credit (HELOC)

A home equity line of credit (HELOC) can be an excellent choice for real estate investors who prefer flexibility and ongoing access to funds. Like a credit card, a HELOC offers a revolving credit line up to a predetermined credit limit. Home equity lines of credit often have a variable interest rate, so your payments may fluctuate. 

HELOCs are ideal for investors who want a safety net of funds readily available for various investment opportunities or unforeseen expenses. Additionally, interest from a HELOC may be tax-deductible. 

3. Piggyback loans

Piggyback loans, also known as 80-10-10 or 80-15-5 loans, involve taking out a second mortgage alongside your primary mortgage, allowing you to avoid paying private mortgage insurance (PMI). The primary mortgage covers most of the property’s purchase price (typically 80%), while the second mortgage covers a smaller portion (e.g., 10% or 15%). Investors can reduce their monthly payments and allocate more funds toward their investment goals by avoiding PMI. These loans are valuable for investors looking to optimize their financing structure. 

4. Cash-out refinance

While not strictly a second mortgage, cash-out refinancing (cash-out refi) is an alternative for accessing property equity. Investors refinance their existing mortgage to secure a larger loan than the outstanding balance. Excess funds are then received in cash and directed toward investments. Cash-out refinancing may be a better alternative than an equity loan or HELOC if your property’s value has significantly appreciated since getting the current mortgage.

Related: HELOC vs. Home Equity Loan: Pros & Cons for Investors

How Much Do Second Mortgages Cost? 

Understanding the financial implications of a second mortgage is essential for real estate investors. The cost of a second mortgage includes various factors that can influence the overall cost and affect your bottom line. Here’s a breakdown of these factors:

Interest rates

Interest rates play a fundamental role in determining the overall cost of a second mortgage. Unlike primary mortgages, second mortgage interest rates tend to be slightly higher due to the increased risk of having a subordinate lien on the property. The rate can be fixed or variable, with variable rates subject to potential fluctuations based on market conditions. Careful consideration of the interest rate is crucial, as even minor variations can significantly impact the total interest paid over the life of the loan.

Closing costs

Similar to primary mortgages, second mortgages include closing costs, which cover various fees associated with the loan origination process. These fees may include appraisal fees, credit checks, loan origination fees, title search fees, and more. Closing costs can vary widely based on the lender, the new loan amount, and property location. It’s critical to factor in these costs when assessing the affordability of a second mortgage.

Loan terms and repayment period

Your second mortgage’s cost is impacted by the loan terms and repayment period. Shorter repayment periods may lead to higher monthly payments but lower total interest payments. 

On the other hand, an extended repayment period offers more manageable monthly payments but potentially results in higher total interest costs. Balancing your financial capabilities with investment objectives is critical when determining optimal home loan terms.

Loan amount and LTV ratio

The loan-to-value (LTV) ratio compares the loan amount to a property’s appraised value. A higher LTV ratio indicates a greater risk for the lender, potentially leading to higher interest rates and costs. Mortgage lenders typically have maximum LTV ratios for second mortgages, and these limits can impact the terms and loan costs.

Repayment schedule

Different second mortgage types may come with various repayment schedules. Home equity loans usually have fixed monthly payments, while HELOCs offer more flexibility, allowing you to draw funds as needed and make interest-only payments during the draw period. The choice between a fixed repayment schedule and a flexible one adds to the total cost of a second mortgage. Before moving forward with a second mortgage, get quotes from multiple lenders, compare terms, and use online calculators to estimate your potential monthly payment and costs.

Pros of Second Mortgages

Second mortgages can be a powerful financial tool that unlocks the door to a wide range of strategic advantages for additional investments. Here are the pros of second mortgages for investors:

Access to capital

One of the most important benefits of a second mortgage is access to funds without liquidating existing assets. This capital can be allocated in various ways, such as financing property upgrades, seizing time-sensitive investment opportunities, or diversifying your real estate portfolio. By leveraging home equity, you can tap into resources that can supercharge your investment goals.

Potential tax advantages

Second mortgages offer tax advantages that can contribute to your bottom line. Interest paid on a second mortgage is often tax-deductible, providing potential savings on your annual tax bill. It’s crucial to consult with a tax professional to understand the tax implications based on your specific circumstances.

Home improvement financing

Real estate investment thrives on enhancing property value, and second mortgages provide a way to finance improvements. Whether renovating a fixer-upper or upgrading an existing property to meet market demands, a second mortgage can supply the necessary funds to boost your investment’s potential resale value.

Portfolio diversification

Investment diversification is a cornerstone of risk management. Second mortgages can free up capital that can be reinvested in additional properties or other investment vehicles, spreading risk out. Diversification safeguards against the potential downturn of a single asset and positions you to capitalize on diverse investment opportunities.

Flexibility and versatility

Different second mortgage types offer various levels of flexibility. Home equity loans provide predictable fixed payments, while HELOCs offer an adaptable revolving credit line. This versatility enables you to tailor your financing approach to align with specific investment strategies, providing you with the agility to jump on favorable market conditions or navigate shifting investment priorities.

Enhanced leverage

Leverage is a hallmark of real estate investment that can amplify potential returns. By securing a second mortgage, you’re effectively maximizing your purchasing power, allowing you to acquire additional properties or capitalize on ventures that may be out of reach with your current cash reserves. 

Cons of Second Mortgages

While second mortgages offer a range of advantages for real estate investors, it’s equally important to be aware of potential drawbacks and challenges. As you consider adding a second mortgage to your investment plans, it’s crucial to weigh these cons against the benefits to make an informed decision. Here are some drawbacks of a second mortgage to consider:

Increased debt burden

Getting a second mortgage requires adding debt to your existing primary mortgage. This increased debt burden can impact your financial obligations and strain your monthly cash flow. Carefully assess your financial capabilities to ensure you can manage two mortgage payments.

Risk of foreclosure

Defaulting on a second mortgage can lead to foreclosure, just like a primary mortgage. But the primary mortgage lender can claim the property’s proceeds during foreclosure. If the property sells to cover the debt, the second mortgage lender may receive less or possibly nothing, depending on the available funds. This risk underscores the importance of diligently managing your mortgage payments to avoid foreclosure.

Variable interest rates

Certain types of second mortgages, particularly HELOCs, often have variable interest rates that fluctuate based on market conditions. While initial rates may be low, potential rate hikes could lead to higher monthly payments and increased costs. Understanding your second mortgage’s terms and potential volatility is crucial before committing.

Costs and fees

Second mortgages come with associated costs, including closing costs, origination fees, and potentially higher interest rates than primary mortgages. These expenses can add up and impact the affordability of the loan. Careful consideration of these costs will help determine whether the benefits of the second mortgage outweigh the expense.

Potential diminished equity

The more mortgages you have on a property, the less equity is available. This reduced home equity can impact your financial flexibility and limit your ability to leverage the property for future investments or financing needs. Balance the benefits of a second mortgage with the long-term implications for home equity.

Subordinate lien status

Second mortgages hold a subordinate lien position to the primary mortgage, so in the event of foreclosure, the primary mortgage lender gets paid off before the second mortgage lender receives any proceeds. If property values have declined since receiving the loans, the recoverable amount for the second mortgage lender may be affected.

Overleveraging

While leveraging can boost returns, overleveraging—taking on too much debt—can expose you to financial risk, especially in a market downturn. Striking a balance between leveraging your investment and maintaining a manageable level of debt will protect your financial stability.

Second mortgages offer many benefits for real estate investors but have potential pitfalls. Understanding the pros and cons is critical when incorporating a second mortgage into your investment strategy. 

How to Get a Second Mortgage

As a real estate investor, getting a second mortgage can help you secure the financing you need while minimizing risks and maximizing your investment opportunities. Here are 10 steps to navigating the second mortgage process:

1. Evaluate your financial situation

Before getting a second mortgage, review your current financial status. Check your credit score, debt-to-income ratio, and overall financial stability. Mortgage lenders look at these factors to determine your eligibility and interest rates. 

2. Calculate your available equity

Determine how much equity you have in your property. Equity is the difference between your property’s current market value and the outstanding balance on your primary mortgage. The loan amount and terms for your second mortgage are determined in large part by the amount of equity in your home.

3. Gather documentation

Lenders require extensive documentation during the application process. Gather documents such as recent tax returns, proof of income, bank statements, and information about your primary mortgage. Having these materials readily available streamlines the application process.

4. Research lenders and loan types

Explore different lenders that offer second mortgages and compare their offerings. Determine which works best with your investment goals by researching various loan types, including home equity loans and HELOCs. Each type has its benefits and drawbacks, so choose one that best suits your financial needs.

5. Submit your application

Once you’ve selected a lender and a specific loan type, submit your application. Be prepared to provide detailed information about your financial history, credit score, property details, and the purpose of the second mortgage. Accurately completing the application increases your chances that the lender will approve your second loan.

6. Underwriting and appraisal

After submitting your application, the lender starts an underwriting process to assess your creditworthiness and the property’s value. An appraisal will determine the current market value of your property. The results will influence the loan terms and amount you qualify for on the loan agreement.

7. Compare loan offers

Once the underwriting and appraisal processes are complete, you’ll receive loan offers from lenders. Review each offer’s terms, interest rates, fees, and repayment schedules. Compare offers to select the one that aligns with your investment goals.

8. Finalize the loan

Once you’ve chosen a lender and loan offer, you can finalize the second loan. You’ll review the terms, understand your repayment obligations, and sign the loan documents. Make sure you fully understand the terms before signing.

9. Effectively use the funds

Upon receiving funds from your second mortgage, you can strategically allocate your finances based on your investment goals. These may include property improvements, portfolio diversification, or additional investment opportunities.

10. Monitor and manage

After getting a second mortgage, closely monitor your investment progress, and diligently manage your financial obligations. Stay on top of your monthly payments, track your property’s performance, and be prepared to adapt to changing market conditions.

As you move forward, continue to educate yourself and seek advice from financial professionals to make informed decisions that advance your real estate investment goals.

Second Mortgage FAQs

Here are answers to some of the most common questions real estate investors have when considering second mortgages.

Why do people get a second mortgage? 

People get a second mortgage for many reasons, mainly driven by financial goals and investment aspirations. Real estate investors may choose a second mortgage to access funds for property improvements, diversify their portfolio, or seize time-sensitive investment opportunities. A second mortgage can also serve as a home improvement loan, debt consolidation loan, education fund, or to cover unforeseen expenses. Second mortgages offer a way to tap into your home’s equity, providing a valuable resource to fulfill both short- and long-term financial plans.

Is it a good idea to get a second mortgage?

Whether getting a second mortgage is a good idea depends on your specific financial situation, investment goals, and risk tolerance. Second mortgages can provide access to significant funds and potential tax advantages, but they also come with increased debt and the risk of foreclosure if not paid on time. 

First, thoroughly assess your ability to manage additional debt, evaluate potential returns on your investment, and consider alternative financing options. Advice from financial professionals can help you make an informed decision that aligns with your financial strategy.

Are second mortgages risky?

Second mortgages have certain risks. Foreclosure is a significant concern, as defaulting on a second mortgage can lead to the loss of your property. And second mortgages often have variable interest rates that fluctuate over time, potentially increasing monthly payments. Overleveraging can expose investors to financial risk, especially in a market downturn. Reducing these risks requires careful financial planning, disciplined management of mortgage payments, and a clear understanding of the terms and potential implications of the second mortgage.

How can I get equity out of my house without refinancing?

Some alternative options for accessing your home equity without refinancing include getting a home equity line of credit (HELOC), which provides a revolving credit line based on your property’s equity. HELOCs allow you to draw funds as needed, like a credit card, without refinancing your primary mortgage. Another option is a home equity loan, which provides a lump-sum amount against your property’s equity. 

These alternatives allow you to access funds without refinancing, but each comes with specific terms and considerations. Research and compare to determine the best fit for your financial goals.

Final Considerations

While second mortgages present attractive possibilities for real estate investors, they also have potential pitfalls. Careful consideration, thorough financial planning, and a comprehensive understanding of both the pros and cons are essential when incorporating a second mortgage into your investment strategy. Use this information as a foundation to make strategic decisions that contribute to your investment success. Empower yourself to navigate the second mortgage application process by being well-informed so you can make sound decisions for your financial goals.

Get the Best Funding

Quickly find and compare investor-friendly lenders who specialize in your unique investing strategy. It’s fast, free, and easier than ever!

Retail sales were up 0.2% in June, but that doesn’t mean the U.S. economy is booming. First off, the bump was lower than projected. Secondly, some categories—including gas, books and garden equipment—went against the grain. Retail sales in these sectors declined, reinforcing the reality that consumers aren’t overly eager to spend.

It’s not surprising, given the Fed keeps announcing interest rate hikes to slow inflation. However, sluggish sales create a gloomy environment for businesses looking to make it through to sunnier skies. The old hat marketing and sales techniques may no longer work as well with hesitant buyers.

Fortunately, marketing methods that focus on sustaining long-term growth and building brand loyalty can. Here’s how to use growth marketing to give your sales a boost.

Create Content for Every Stage of the Buyer’s Journey

Traditional marketing can be good at raising awareness. You see a rotation of ads, perhaps too many times. Now you know a brand exists, what it stands for and what it sells. But so what?

You might find the ads’ messages annoying or confusing. Just because you’re aware of something doesn’t mean you’re convinced you need to buy it. And maybe you’ve tried the product before but aren’t sure why you should use it now.

A shortcoming of traditional marketing is that it doesn’t focus on the entire buyer’s journey. It’s also impersonal, as the goal is often to reach as many people as possible with a generic message. A growth marketing strategy takes a different approach. It strives to nurture and convert at every stage, including targeting current customers who might be thinking of abandoning the brand.

Companies can implement growth strategies by creating content for each step in the buyer’s journey. These steps go beyond awareness to acquisition, activation, revenue, retention and referral. Using distinct content to target leads and customers at these various stages makes the messages more relevant. You can also split-test content to see which messages increase sales. You’ll generate demand and improve customer retention at the same time.

Optimize Online Content for Search Engines

A good chunk of your online content will probably be aimed at generating, nurturing and converting leads. Your content needs to be visible to do this effectively. Potential leads won’t find you if your pages aren’t ranking well in the search engine results.

While you may have heard of search engine optimization, it involves more than sprinkling in a few target keywords. Mastering SEO requires aligning your market and keyword research. It also means keeping up to date with search engine algorithm changes, implementing impactful linking strategies and fine-tuning each page’s technical aspects.

Say you’ve devoted a portion of your website to a blog to generate leads. Your posts discuss pain points your market research shows your audience cares about. In addition, each post’s subject matter matches your brand’s voice and identity. However, the blog’s organic traffic volume is below target.

Because of the lower search engine visibility, lead gen numbers are down. An audit reveals that you need to fix several broken links and incorporate more long-tail keywords. After you make the changes, you notice the posts are starting to rank higher. Now you’re getting more organic traffic, which translates to a larger number of prospects you can nurture. Additional leads mean a potential boost in sales as they move to the activation and revenue stages.

Sync Efforts Across Different Channels

Since growth marketing strategies focus on the entire customer experience, more than one channel is involved. Yes, your website’s blog generates leads. But your business also reaches its target audience through social media, email, surveys and online customer service chats. In addition, your strategies rely on paid traffic from pay-per-click ads and amplified social posts.

Syncing your messages across different channels can create a seamless, personalized experience for leads and customers. When communication is well-coordinated, it helps establish authority. Would you be responsive to an email from your bank encouraging you to sign up for a product you already have? You’d probably wonder why you received the message, and the brand would lose credibility.

In this case, the bank should know you don’t need a mortgage given that you’ve been paying on one for years. But what if the bank emailed you about upgrading your checking account instead? Based on the data, the company noticed you’re a good candidate for a higher tier with more valuable incentives. It’s a better-targeted offer and more likely to motivate you to increase your business with them.

Growth marketers realize audiences interact with multiple touchpoints across various channels. And they know people are paying attention and will notice inconsistencies. Integrated cross-channel campaigns improve your company’s chances of generating incremental sales, whether they’re from new or existing customers. The trust sales require comes from consistent relevance.

Growth Marketing’s Role in Increasing Sales

People won’t buy from you if they don’t know you’re there. Still, there’s more to sales than awareness. People also won’t buy if they perceive your offer as untrustworthy or irrelevant.

Growth marketing strategies recognize that awareness, trust and relevance are factors throughout the buyer’s journey—and that current clients are likely to generate more revenue. After all, data shows they outspend new customers by 31%. By leveraging growth marketing techniques such as the creation and distribution of targeted, optimized and relevant content, your company can keep its long-term sales on track.