To his credit, the UK Chancellor Jeremy Hunt put the long-term interests of British businesses front and centre of the Autumn Statement.

Most critically, the Government announced it would make full expensing permanent. In 2017, full expensing was the best idea in politics you’ve never heard of; today, the idea that you should let businesses deduct the cost of any investment they do from their corporation tax bills is orthodoxy. As my colleague Derin Kocer explains: “Full expensing gives businesses what they need: incentives to make long-term investments. Making this policy permanent will offer certainty to invest and drive businesses to upgrade the nation’s capital stock, boosting our productivity and unlocking new opportunities for entrepreneurs and innovators across the country.”

Another crucial bit of tax tinkering came through the extension of the sunset clause to 2035 for the Enterprise Investment Scheme (EIS) and Venture Capital Trusts (VCTs), which encourage individuals to invest indirectly in a range of unquoted smaller, higher risk trading companies. This follows calls from the EISA, the VCTA and most recently through the All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) for Entrepreneurship’s Funding to Flourish report.

Also of note, the Government announced it would be accepting all of the recommendations of the Independent Review of Spin-out Companies. Among these recommendations are calls for: academics and their institutions to agree spin-out deals on market terms which avoid unnecessary negotiations; greater disclosure of deals to increase transparency; and the ability for universities to use funding to cover the costs of university technology transfer offices.

Responding to the announcement, co-author of our most recent paper on spin-outs, Academic to Entrepreneur, Eamonn Ives, said: “Ensuring that as much of the research as possible which takes place in Britain’s universities can be turned into dynamic companies will be essential for growing the economy and tackling problems such as climate change or our ageing population. In theory, the recommendations made in the Independent Review of Spin-outs represent a good first step for enabling academic entrepreneurs to build investable startups of their own, but it remains to be seen how they work in practice. If problems continue to persist, the Government should not be afraid to go further when it comes to boosting Britain’s spinout landscape.”

The Government also announced it will progress the National Infrastructure Commission’s (NIC) April recommendations on planning by delivering reforms to return the Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project regime, which aim to strengthen the capacity of the planning system to deliver a better service for businesses. It will also bring forward plans for authorities to offer guaranteed accelerated decision dates for major developments in England in exchange for a fee, ensuring refunds are given where deadlines are not met and limiting use of extension of time agreements.

As we have argued in Strong Foundations, the UK’s rigid planning system drives up the cost of housing, office space, and lab space, and is severely holding back our startup hotspots around the country. Britain’s sclerotic planning system makes new infrastructure and housing more expensive to build and longer to develop. This hurts businesses who can’t otherwise make use of it, and denies opportunities for those who want to build it. Meanwhile, agglomeration is curtailed as people are prevented from moving to more productive areas to fulfil their potential. We therefore welcome the incentives for local councils and other reforms to speed up development.

With the Office for Budget Responsibility’s growth forecasts down, Hunt was right to focus on Britain’s businesses as the key driver of future prosperity. It’s just a shame that this long-term thinking has not always been present in other fiscal announcements made in the last 13 years. With Brexit, the pandemic and crippling energy prices, the last few years have been incredibly tough for entrepreneurs. As our recent Risk Readiness Report with Mishcon de Reya showed, a significant proportion of entrepreneurs (39%) believe the overall level of risk in the business environment is higher now than it was 12 months ago, and the same proportion (39%) think the level of risk will only increase in the coming year.

A spot of good news is long overdue.

Mindy:
Hello my dear listeners and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast Thanksgiving weekend edition. Today we have a very special encore episode for you. Last year we aired an episode with Chris Hutchins from All The Hacks podcast. We talked about travel hacks, meal and grocery hacks, money investing hacks, and so much more. That episode was so popular that we are re-airing it today. On Monday, we actually have Chris coming back to the show where we discuss holiday hacks. We hope you had a safe and happy holiday and we will see you back here on Monday. Today’s guest is Chris Hutchins, the host of All The Hacks podcast. Chris has an impressive resume filled with big names like Google, Grove, Milk and Wealthfront, and has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and CNBC. But it’s his ability to master ways to hack his life and come up with the easiest way to get something done that truly caught my eye. Today we’re going to talk with Chris about All The Hacks. Chris, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast. I am so excited to talk to you today.

Chris:
This has been a long time coming. I’m so excited to be here.

Mindy:
So let’s jump into a little bit of your background before we look at some of your favorite hacks. Where does your journey with money begin?

Chris:
My journey with money, it’s one of these things where I always try to pin it down with my parents and I never get a good answer. I’m like, “Come on, tell me the childhood story that I could come on a podcast and be like, ‘I had the lemonade stand and then I hired my neighbors to run it.’” I don’t have a perfect childhood money story. There were a bunch of random little like, “Ooh, I’m going to create a magazine to pretend that I’m in the press to go to concerts for free.” But little stories.

Mindy:
Wait, what?

Chris:
I wanted to go to concerts as a kid in high school, and so I just made a fake magazine and print it out on paper so that I could just go and be like, “Oh, I have this cool ‘zine about music. Can I come to this concert as a press person?” And it worked for shows that were like 500 people shows in a church basement kind of shows. It was not like I was going to a giant stadium concert.

Mindy:
But it’s still got you free tickets into a concert. So your life hacking skills started when you were in high school,

Chris:
Yeah. But there’s not a journey. It’s just a random thing that I was like, “How do I get into this thing?” Or in high school another one was I went to boarding school and there were a lot of people to go to boarding school that have a ton of money. My parents didn’t give me this allowance and this credit card that allowed me to do whatever I wanted, but I loved pizza and everyone was always ordering pizza. And so what I did was I would just order Domino’s Pizza and I would sell the slices at enough of a markup that I would get two slices every night. So I feel like my whole life was just like… Boarding school was a good example because everyone had their parents’ credit card except me. So I had to find ways to make money and kind of keep up. And so I convinced the school to hire me to run the mail room because I was like, “Then I can make some money.”
I don’t know. And then I could curry favors because I was like, “Oh, I can unlock the mail room after hours if you didn’t get your package.” So my life is full of these random things. But the kind of broader, bigger picture financial story kind of came after college. I took a job in investment banking and management consulting. I took two jobs because I didn’t know what I wanted to do and I had two offers that started nine months after each other and I didn’t have the time to figure out what career path I wanted because I was late to the game. So I was like, ask friends, “What’s the best job?” And they’re “Management consulting, investment banking.” I was like, “Oh, I’ll do those.” And I hated both of them. So nine months into the first one, I said, “Ah, I’m not going to do this.”
And I took the other offer that I’d already accepted. I went to work there and I was like, “Wow, if I don’t love working, what am I going to do? I have 50, 60, 70, 80 years left in my life and if I don’t like working, I am screwed.” So I was like, “I have to save every dollar and find a way to be very optimal because otherwise I’m going to be stuck doing a job I don’t love.” And so not knowing at the time that there was a fire movement, not knowing all of this stuff, not having read Mr. Money Mustache’s blog, I was just “I need to find line item by line item a way to reduce all the costs on my spending so that I can save as much money as possible so I don’t have to work a job I don’t love.” Because my naive self was like, “Well, I’ve only had two jobs, but I didn’t love either of them, so I must not like working. What do I do?”

Mindy:
I disagree with you. I think the broader story is you going back to high school, always looking for ways to figure things out instead of playing by the rules. Because the rules are you work for 40 years and then you retire at age 65 and the rules are you pay for concerts and the rules are you buy a pizza or you don’t eat a pizza, you don’t sell it by the slice. Why would you do that? I love that you are always looking for ways to, I don’t want to say get… Well, you are looking for ways to hack your life. You’re looking for ways to hack the system.

Chris:
It’s funny, I was working with this woman to, I hired someone who helped me figure out what are my life principles. If I were ever going to write a book, how do I distill everything I think about the world into something that is not just a five-hour rambling story? And over the course of a month and a half, we kind of came up with what are the principles of living an optimized life, mine? And the first one is the conventional wisdom sucks, which I think is where you’re going. It’s always when someone says, “Oh, this is how it works,” even when it’s normally accepted, I’m just like, “Is it? Is there another way to do this? Maybe that’s actually not correct. Maybe this other thing will work.” And that’s like the guiding principle. And then there’s a bunch of others that we came up with after talking this and now I’m like, “Ooh, now I have nine principles for living an optimized life.” Now I got to figure out how to put more of them into prose and something that someone could read.

Scott:
Can you roll through a couple more of those principles please?

Chris:
Yeah. So the next one was question the outcome you think you want. So I think a great example of this is someone says, “I need more money.” It’s like, “Well, why do you need more money?” “Oh, I need more money so I can retire early.” Well, why do you want to retire early?” “Oh, I want to retire early because I want to spend time with my family.” It’s like, “Well, what if you found a way that you could find a job that gave you a little bit more time now and then you had time to spend with your family? Or hypothetically, maybe you decide you want to be a teacher and you get summers off and you spend all the summers with your kids and you don’t have to…” So if what you really want is that you want more flexibility to spend time with your family, the only way you might get there is questioning the original outcome you thought you wanted, which was, “Oh, I need more money to retire early.”
And so that was one. Another one I think is I really believe in structured information gathering. We have a note on this one that’s come up with a catchier way to say this, but whenever I’m collecting information about anything, I try to figure out how I can structure it before I do any research. So my wife and I were deciding, gosh, our daughter’s two, our neighbor has a daughter and she’s going to ballet class. We were like, “Should we be sending our daughter to a class or something, gymnastics? I don’t know.” And so I was like, “Well, let’s figure out what all the options are.” But instead of just doing casual research, I was like, “Let’s build a page in our notion board and let’s figure out what we want to collect. How often does it run? How much does it cost? How far away is it? How old are the kids in it?”
And all this stuff. And now we have this little mini database that when I go to my wife, she’s like, “Oh, well what could she do on Wednesdays? Because she doesn’t have preschool.” I don’t have to go back out and do all this other research. I’ve already kind of collected in an optimal way. And it forces me to think about what I want to get out of learning when I’m trying to do research and then I end up finding more optimal outcomes because I’ve been able to collect more information in a structured way. So that’s three of them.

Scott:
Where can people find all of the principles that you have here?

Chris:
Nowhere. These are fresh. So one of my jobs, actually, if you want more, email me, [email protected] and I can get some feedback. But the conversation I had with Sarah Stibbets, who’s this person who’s excellent at helping people distill their thoughts on the world into principles or a framework, we just came up with them. These are like draft form days old and I’m still supposed to go and test them and see how they should be iterated. So this is not something ready for prime time, but you heard it here first.

Scott:
Well, for a show on hacks, we really started with the deep core fundamentals to get going here. So this is awesome. Where is a resource or what’s something that we could link to in the show notes where people could learn more about this concept before we move into some of the other discussions we want to have today?

Chris:
The concept of coming up with these life principles?

Scott:
Yes.

Chris:
I wish that I had a place, maybe I’ll come up with allthehacks.com/principles and I’ll put my draft principles there. I don’t know if I’ll get it done, but I’ll lease a landing page or something. If you subscribe to the newsletter I put together, I’m going to write a newsletter to test this out, but it might be a couple of weeks. So I don’t know, this is so fresh on the top of my mind, I don’t have a place for it yet.

Scott:
For now, it’s something to consider life principles, go Google it and try to figure out ways to research if you’re interested in learning more.

Chris:
Yeah, Ray Dalio wrote a book about life principles that I think was a little bit of inspiration of just what would mine be, but for me it’s less about life and more about optimizing your life, the thing that I feel like is my thing.

Mindy:
Yeah, I think that is your thing. Let’s talk about optimizing your life. What is your absolute favorite optimization under any category at all that you have ever come up with besides the free concert tickets in high school? That would’ve been my favorite.

Chris:
No, no. Oh man, it’s really, there’s the obvious favorites and the kind of obscure favorite. So the obvious favorite is that my wife and I have traveled extensively on credit card points, but I feel like that’s not unique enough to come out and be like, “Oh, my favorite life hack is earn points and take trips for free.” Though-

Mindy:
Well, it doesn’t have to be some brand new thing that nobody’s ever thought of. That’s a really great life hack is I just spent this year $6,000 on airfare because I was going to Germany with my daughter, but she was going on a school trip and the school trip gets a huge discount and they can book whenever they want. And Lufthansa is like, “Yeah, you already buy like 5,000 tickets a year. So whenever,” but I only buy three tickets once on Lufthansa. They’re like, “You can pay full price.” So if I would’ve thought about it in advance, I could have gotten a Chase Ultimate Rewards credit card and started earning those points and transferred them over to Lufthansa when it was time to buy with three weeks notice, even though I knew that I was going on this trip for 18 months. So being able to travel extensively for almost nothing is a great life hack. I think that’s one of the best life hacks out there. Where have you gone? What have you done?

Chris:
Yeah, I’ve done the tally. It’s probably 65, 66 countries at this point.

Mindy:
Oh my God, okay, so that’s not just to grandma’s.

Chris:
No, no, we’ve been all over. We hit a lot of places once where we took a trip, we flew one way to South Africa, we quit our jobs and we just said “We’re going to figure out where we go.” And we ended up mostly overland trekking from South Africa to Singapore on trains and buses and hitchhiking and all kinds of stuff, all the way up Africa through the Middle East, through India and Southeast Asia. But for us, travel was the thing that we wanted to do that wasn’t in the budget. We were trying to… This was early on. My wife and I have been together since 2004, so a long time. And when we were just kind of living on our post-college budgets, we were like, “Well, how do we do all the things we want to do and not run out of money?” And there are ways to hack, house hacking.
I’m sure you’ve had plenty of episodes on that. There’s ways to eat for cheaper, but travel was this thing where it’s like there’s not really a way to get a flight to Europe or to Asia for $7 unless you play the Points of Miles game, which is why I think that became this one huge item on our budget that the only way to get rid of was either to not do it, which we didn’t think was what we wanted or to play the game. And so that one for us has let us take, I don’t know, all kinds of things we’ve done. We’ve been to so many places. Japan is awesome. Namibia was one of our favorites. Thailand, the whole Southeast Asia circuit was amazing and so cheap. So it’s like once you get there, if you can use your points to just cross the ocean and land there, then all of a sudden it’s really cheap.
So I think most of our travel has optimized around going to places that once you’re there where it’s not as easy to use points and miles, it’s a lot less expensive. So my wife and I have never been to the UK. We’ve never… A lot of these mainstream, I was joking with my wife, we’ve been to all over the world, but she’s never been to London. And I’ve only been because I went once as a small kid, but we haven’t gone to the expensive places. Japan aside, we’ve been to Japan a few times, because it’s just our favorite place.

Scott:
Can you tell us what you did to earn all of those points, how you optimized them and what if anything is available today? I know that the reward systems change and so that many of the hacks you probably used are not available and then there are new ones that have taken their place.

Chris:
So I think the biggest thing is there’s two main ways to earn points. One is just make sure that every time you’re spending money on a monthly basis, you’re putting it on a card that optimizes where you spend money. So if all your money’s being spent on groceries, the Amex Gold card gets four points per dollar on groceries, the Amex platinum card, which someone might be like, “Ooh, that’s even better.” It gets one point on groceries. So there’s not a one size fits all solution for everyone. And so I always say, “Look at where you spend the bulk of your money. If it’s travel and dining, Chase Sapphire, Preferred Reserve, great options.” It kind of depends. If you spend all your money at Home Depot, there’s not a great option. So you might get a card like the Capital One Venture or Venture X that just earns two points on everything.
So that’s one. And then the other is that credit card issuers, banks give massive bonuses to try to lure new customers to use their products. And so if you sign up for a credit card, you can get anywhere from, if you’re picking the right opportunities, let’s say anything, 75 to 150,000 miles or points to open a new card and spend some number of thousands of dollars in 90 days. And so a lot of my points have come from that. Just, “Oh, there’s a new card, it’s got 100,000 point signup bonus, let’s sign up for that one.” And I’ll say before going any deeper on this, no amount of points is worth paying interest on any of these cards. So if anyone listening right now is like, “I need to pay off my credit card bills,” do that first. This is not going to outweigh the 17, 25% APRs at all. So if that’s the circumstance you’re in, this is not the game for you yet, but I promise there’s another episode of this wonderful podcast that will help you think about how to save and pay off debt.

Mindy:
So I have one little tip about your credit cards. You just said that the Amex Gold gives you four points for groceries, so now I need to go get one of those, but you can have more than one card at a time. And what you should do is if you can’t remember, especially if you have 50 different credit cards in your wallet, write on the top of the credit card, what you’re using it for. I have a card that has an address on it because it’s for that house. That is the only thing I use that card for is to put purchases for that house on that card.
I don’t want to mistakenly use it for another house or another project, so I don’t, and I’m going to get this Amex Gold and write groceries on there because I want to make sure I use it for groceries. I’ve got a Costco card that’s I think three or four points per dollar for gas when you’re at Costco. So write on these cards so you’re using them in the most optimal way. But what I do is I have a hotel points card, I have Costco card, and I think we have a Southwest card as well just because that’s where we travel the most. So we are constantly earning points for these things that we are using anyway.

Chris:
Yeah, And I’ll say with the advent of Apple Pay, I feel like I’m not carrying all these cards around anymore. So I’m going to give a plug for an app that’s really fantastic called CardPointers. And it’s basically load all the cards you have in. The one great thing that I know anyone that cares about information security or privacy, this is not an app where you go link your accounts and they pull down all your spending data and you have to share your passwords. This is just, I have these cards and they’ll just say, “Okay, here’s the card of your arsenal of cards that is best for each category.” It works really well. If you’re trying to do this with a partner that’s maybe not as excited as you are, you say, “Hey, let me just load this up. And then you have an app,” they can open the app and it’s just a crib sheet for what to use, where.

Scott:
Probably helps with categorizing expenses as well because they’re all the same buckets of spending that are going on one card.

Chris:
Yeah, I think if you go to allthehacks.com/deals, there’s a CardPointers deal there if you sign up for pro. But it’s a great app, I use it, I pay for it. I think it’s an easy way to… And I helped set it up for my mom once I was like, “Hey, you have three cards.” Here are the settings for you.

Mindy:
Okay, this is obviously the best hack is the travel hacking. What’s the most unusual hack that you love?

Chris:
I think one that it seems so obvious, but somehow it just never came to me. And I’ve shared this with you before we recorded. I know you love it. We were trying to go through this process after we had a child. We were like, “Gosh, we don’t have time.” We used to have all this free time, then you have one kid and then you have less free time, but there’s only one kid, so one of you can slip away. And then we had two kids and we’re like, “Now we have no time because when we’re not working, we have to be on the kids. And so what are we going to do?” And we started going through what are all the things in our life that take time that we could outsource? And there are the obvious ones. You’d probably all either have or know someone that has someone to could help clean your house or you could drop off your laundry to get it washed and these things.
And we had someone help clean the house, but we did our own laundry. I think my wife would never want someone else deciding what gets dried, what doesn’t, never in a million years. And then someone I don’t remember who was like, “Well, what if you outsource your meals?” And I was like, “Well, we’re not going to outsource to a chef. We’re not the kind of people that have the money to just have some chefs come over and cook us fancy dinners.” And someone had told me, “Oh no, no, no. There’s people that’ll just prep meals for the week. You send them five recipes, they’ll go to the grocery store, they’ll make them, put them in Tupperware and drop them off at your house.” And I was like, “Really?” So I made an ad on Craigslist and I’ll even send you guys a link if you want to put it in the show notes of here’s the ad I made.
I got five or seven people wrote back, and I think I did the math about half the cost if I were to order DoorDash for dinners. For about half of what DoorDash would cost, someone went to the grocery store, bought all the ingredients, cooked meals and dropped them off twice a week so that we had each time two days of enough food for two dinners and leftovers for lunches. And so basically it was this woman who was just like, “I like to cook.” She was not a professionally trained chef. She’s just like, “I like to cook and I can follow directions in a recipe.” And sometimes she’s like, “Oh, I have some ideas. Can I try this recipe?” And it was the best thing ever. So for six months, and my wife and I love to cook, but for six months we just didn’t have the time and we were just trying to get into the right routine and we didn’t have to think about it and it was the best thing ever.

Mindy:
That is my favorite hack because I’ve never heard it before, first of all. The travel points, I love that. But like you said, that’s not a new hack. This I’ve never heard before and I absolutely love that because it can be so hard to find the time to cook sometimes. You’re like, “Well, I don’t want to go out to dinner,” but you kind of, that’s the only option. Or DoorDash, which is also very expensive, or we’ve had meal plans that sponsor the show, those are awesome, but if you haven’t already ordered those, what are you going to eat tonight?

Chris:
Or you have to cook them. If you have meals delivered, even if they chop up the ingredients for you and get it all ready, you still need time This, it’s take something out of the fridge, put it in the oven for 15 minutes and you don’t have to sit and watch the oven cook. You could step away. And so that was just amazing. And then we started thinking, “Gosh, are there other things?” And unfortunately we couldn’t find any other huge unlocks in our life. Though I’m now thinking, I’ve never been one to hire a virtual assistant. But what we’ve been doing is cataloging various tasks that could make sense for an online virtual assistant and one that sounds so silly, but takes 20, 30 minutes is now we’re cooking and we have this app called Paprika, which is a recipe manager app and a meal planning app.
Because my wife and I were like, “Gosh, we kind of miss cooking, let’s bring that back.” And we might go back and forth, cook for six months, go back. And I was like, “We have all these recipes. I just need someone to go through all the recipes and put them all in a list and then just add them to our Amazon Fresh cart.” And I’m like, “I wonder if that’s a task for a virtual assistant or these sites like Fancy Hands where you buy five 15 minute tasks a month or something for $20.”
So that’s something we’re going to experiment with next is are there little kind of research driven tasks like, “Oh, we need to get our dog vaccinated. We haven’t found a vet. Can you just call around and find a vet that can get him in this week?” Little tasks like that, maybe they take you 15, 20 minutes, but those things add up. And at the end of the day, if you spent 15 minutes, three times, you almost spent a whole hour of your day doing these things that you could have spent, I don’t know, working, reading out with your kids, relaxing, sleeping. So for me, I’m trying to find these things. I’m trying to catalog them so that I can really feel like I have something to fill the time. If I had five tasks a month, I don’t want to fill them all.

Mindy:
Okay. The most surprising thing that you just said is that you have not yet hired a virtual assistant.

Chris:
Is that something you guys both do and I’m just late to the game?

Mindy:
No, no. I am just way behind you. We have virtual assistants at BiggerPockets, but I don’t have one for my personal life.

Scott:
I have experimented with personal assistants in the past, including back in college a few times.

Mindy:
What was the funnest one that you had your virtual assistant do Scott?

Scott:
I had the virtual assistant call my mom for me and hear about her day. That didn’t go over too well. I don’t advise that one.

Chris:
But now that you could break it up into I only need an hour, I’m looking at Fancy Hands and it’s like three requests a month, five requests a month. You don’t need to go hire a full-time assistant. And you could have people do everything from research to scheduling things. I could have done when I described earlier, trying to research all the classes that our daughter could go to, that probably took me 45 minutes, but I could have found someone that could do that. So I don’t know, I’m starting to think about whether I’m going to have enough tasks that it would make sense. So outsourcing things. I like to calendar audit, so where am I spending my time? Am I spending a lot of time on things that someone else could do that would give me more leverage on my time to do the things that I’m uniquely capable of doing? Ideally that could earn money so that I could make up for the fact that I just hired someone to do these other things.

Scott:
I think the framework here is whether or not you articulate it like this. You have a very clear understanding of the value of your time and these things are below that threshold in value and these things are above it. And I am generally at max capacity, therefore if I have a good handle on that, everything below the threshold needs to get outsourced in some way to somebody else. And if you can do that, that’s great. And for those listening, a great tool for that is if you earn $100,000 a year, then you can compute the value of your time at $50 per hour. That’s all pre-tax. It might be a little less than that after tax, but that’s a great way to compute. That’s 2000 hours per year at $50 an hour gets you to $100,000 in annual income. So if you’re doing tasks that are $10 an hour or $15 an hour like going to the store or shopping and cooking perhaps, then that may be a good arbitrage it was for Chris, otherwise you’ll need to do that and that number should move over time.

Chris:
So I really struggled with that. I was like, “Well, but it’s not like my employer is going to give me more money if I work a little more.” So the thing that I finally did was I signed up to be a Lyft driver and I did one ride and I was like, “Oh.” My wife had worked at Lyft. So I was like, “Oh, this is kind of fun. I get to go do the thing the company you work at.” So I gave a ride and I was like, “Oh, now at any point in time I could open an app and flip a switch and start making in the Bay Area right now I think it’s like $30 an hour or something.” So now I struggled with could I really value my time at $50 an hour because if I don’t spend this hour researching activities for my daughter, I’m not actually going to make $50.
Now I sign up for Lyft and now I know if I want to make $30 in the next hour, I have a way to do it. And that immediately made me think, “Okay, every hour I’m not turning this on, I’m foregoing $30 an hour, which means that I should be able to spend $30 an hour for someone else to do something.” So for me, it needed that one extra step of actually creating a simple way to show myself that I could go make that money at an hourly rate, even though that might be lower than my hourly rate at my job, it at least put a floor that was like, “If I’m just hanging out doing nothing, I know that I could be making $30 an hour.” And so that changed everything for me. And now I’m like, “Well, if it’s not worth $30 an hour to pay someone, then why am I not out there earning that $30 an hour?” So that helped me get comfortable.

Scott:
Love it. You just take that a step further and go to the marginal value of the addition of the next hour worked. So you’re an economist.

Chris:
I try. And I would just want to loop back quick because I don’t know if we’re going to get back to travel, but there are a couple cool fun travel hacks I want to throw in there. One of my favorites is when you book a hotel, book it directly with the hotel. And here’s the reason. So hotels are still in the hospitality business and they love building relationships with customers because the loyal repeat business is what drives a lot of revenue for them. And if you book on Expedia, Travelocity, they kind of don’t really get that opportunity because the channel between the consumer is with Expedia, Travelocity. So you book directly with the hotel, you get their email either on their website or call the front desk and email them and just say, “Hey, here’s my confirmation number. I’m coming on this day. I’m really excited to stay with you.”
If you’re celebrating anything, let them know. Then a few days before reply and just say, “Hey, just want to follow up. We’re still on track to be here in a couple of days, really excited.” I have gotten hundreds of emails, Twitter messages, Instagram foot posts of people who’ve gotten upgrades, gift baskets, wine, free cocktails at the bar, their parking comped, free breakfast all the way to my favorite, which was their initials embroidered on the pillow in the room, all for sending an email. So if you want a hack that’ll get you something for nothing, it’s just send the email to the hotel and see what happens. I’m not going to promise it’ll work every time, but if it’s the kind of hotel that has room service and could deliver chocolate covered strawberries or a bottle of wine to your room, I think it’ll probably work If I had to peg it 40, 50% of the time.

Scott:
That’s awesome.

Mindy:
And you could hire a VA to do that for you.

Chris:
I probably could have, yeah. I’ll add it to the list of tasks. Every time I book a hotel for the confirmation, have that person go and send that. Yeah, so I’m a big nerd on the travel hacking I think is the core. I always tell people the podcast, All The Hacks, it’s like one third all about travel, one third about money and one third about life and life is career. It could be hosting cocktail parties, it could be anything you do, but the travel side is where I think I find all these kind of weird crazy things.

Scott:
Chris, these are fantastic. Let’s fly through a bunch more of these tips. What else you got for hotels or other travel tips?

Chris:
Okay, I got a couple cool travel ones. One, if you’re booking a villa or a house, you’re looking on Airbnb. If it’s in another country, sometimes this works in the US but really great in Mexico and overseas. Take the image that best represents the property, save it to your computer, go to Google image search and upload it. And chances are there’s probably three or four other websites that are a broker for booking that same property. So you might find some local version of Airbnb in Mexico, there’s a site called Cabo Villas, which is great for booking villas in Cabo. You might find that property somewhere else and it can be 20, 30% cheaper. You might even find a website that the owner themselves has set up so there’s no extra commission going to the booking agency and you could save even more. So that’s one.
If you’re flying international, don’t always look from where you live to where you’re going when you’re searching for flights. First off, I do all my flight searching on Google Flights. I think it’s the best tool. You don’t book there, you go book on the airlines website. But Google Flights is where I start when I’m using dollars to book a flight. If you’re using points, it’s a whole different ballgame. But if you’re using dollars Google Flights, you could put open-ended things like San Francisco up to one stop, go anywhere and look at a map in July for one week trips. You could do all this crazy stuff. But if you were trying to get from where I live, San Francisco to Santorini in Greece, there’s like three airlines that fly all the legs necessary to get you there. But if you say I want to go from San Francisco to Athens, there’s probably 15 airlines that can get you to Athens and the flight from Athens to Santorini is like $50.
So if you’re looking to go anywhere that’s a little bit off the beaten path. It’s not a major city, maybe it’s an island, maybe it’s a small town. Just try to buy your ticket to the closest destination. People call these positioning flights, get yourself really close to where you want to go and then just do that last leg separately. Because the way all these flight searches work is they’re all looking for some carrier and their partners that will get you the entire way there. Very few of them will pair up in the US like a Southwest flight with a Lufthansa flight. You’ve probably never seen that happen. So if you were in Germany trying to do this and you’re like, “I want to get to Seattle,” it’s like we’re only looking at places that United and Lufthansa work together because they’re partners. So that’s one.
I love if you’re booking car rentals, Autoslash is this great website where you can go in and just say, “Here’s where I’m booking.” And even if you’ve already booked separately, they’ll just continually monitor for you. And if they find a cheaper price, they’ll say, “Hey, we found a lower price.” And because almost all car rentals you can just cancel the reservation and book it again. They really help with that. And then if you’re not booking with a credit card that has all the travel benefits, delayed bags, lost bags, trip delay, cancellation, evacuation stuff, make sure you do that and then just stay on top of if you have something come up, make sure you cancel it. If you have something come up, there’s a little tiny hack that doesn’t always work. But if you need to cancel a flight, if you know you’re not going to take that flight, I always wait until 12 hours before to cancel it because every now and then there’s a schedule change or a delay or something and then you get to cancel it for free.
A lot of the airlines now will let you cancel for free, but you get credit. But we were in Hawaii and we kind of wanted to come back a day early and so we booked a Southwest flight the day early, but we didn’t cancel our other flight until we were ready to leave. And sure enough they changed the flight and they were like, “Hey, if you need to cancel at no cost, you can.” Because they pushed it back by four hours. So I always wait to cancel flights. Look, I probably have 15 episodes on travel hacking, so we could probably do the next three hours on this. I’ve got… Go check out more there, but I don’t know. Those are some of my favorite travel hacks.

Scott:
That was fantastic. What’s another category of hacks outside of travel that you have?

Chris:
I’ll call this spending money. It’s pretty broad but I’ll put it in the money category. There are a few ones that I love here. So one Amazon Smile, it’s like this site where you could basically, if you buy everything through Amazon Smile, it’s basically you get to buy the same stuff that’s on Amazon except Amazon will donate 1% to charity. So that’s a cool one. Help other people.
I think that if you have a family and you look at the cost of buying memberships to zoos and museums, it’s because most of them are all nonprofits. When you join the membership to the zoo or the museum, it’s a tax deductible donation to a charity. And if you factor that in most zoos and museums, and we’re talking like science museum or history museum or art museum, most of them end up costing about 25% more and sometimes even as little as less when you factor in the tax deduction. So we had family in town for Thanksgiving a year ago and we all wanted to go to the Oakland Zoo and to get a membership to the Oakland Zoo that included four guests and kids was the exact same price after you factored in the tax deduction as just buying all the tickets. So we just got the membership to the zoo and then for the next year we’ve been able to go to the zoo for free.

Mindy:
I do want to tag onto your zoo tip with my museum tip that I think I got from Jillian Johnsrud from Montana Money Adventures. Your Nature and Science Museum membership is good at something like 360 science and nature museums around the country that are more than 90 miles outside of your home museum. So we are close to the Denver Museum of Nature and Science. So any museum within a 90 mile radius, my membership wouldn’t get me into, but there’s a list of more than 360, I’m on their website right now. There’s a list of more than 360 science centers and museums that you can get into with your museum pass. And I think actually somebody up in Oregon told me this as well. There’s a Portland Museum that’s pretty interesting. So it doesn’t work with zoos I don’t think, but it works with science museums all around the country.

Chris:
There’s another version of that that a lot of zoos have. So if you have a science museum, you might be able to go to the science museums. If you’re in a zoo one, you might be able to go to the zoo ones or there’s actually a museum in the Bay Area called CuriOdyssey, like half zoo, half science, and I think they’re in both. So we have a membership there. Yeah, it’s wild. And I don’t know, the kids love it. So it’s like anytime you’re traveling you’re like, “Oh, what’s the free museum we can go spend the afternoon in because we made one time, one-time donation in the last year at our local one?”
The other fun one Library Extension, you installed this browser extension and when you’re browsing Amazon, it’ll just tell you whether your local library has the book that you’re looking at, either available in digital download right away format or check out at the library. So you’re looking at a library, you’re like, “Oh, I’m about to buy this book.” Or you’re looking at Amazon, you’re about to buy a book. It’s like, “Oh, I could just literally download the Kindle version of this book right now for free from my local library.”

Mindy:
Ooh that’s a good tip.

Chris:
Unclaimed money, I don’t know if you’ve talked about this a lot, but there’s a website for every state where you can just go search whether there’s money owed to you. So that’s probably the version one of it. Go see if anyone owes you money. I just cashed a check for $1. So sometimes you get a check in the mail that might not be worth your time to cash it. But on the flip side, that website’s also a place where people can go find your address because they just need your name and your city and it confirms your address. So I like to clear all my unclaimed money out, but I also, anytime I’m going to a friend’s house for dinner or something, I’m like, “Oh, I got your address, I got your name.” I go look them up and I show up to dinner and I’m like, “Oh, I brought a bottle of wine. But I also found that Verizon owes you $35. So if you want to go to this website, you can get a free $35.” And so that’s my party hack is bringing unclaimed money.

Scott:
What is this website?

Chris:
So every state has a website where you can go search a database of unclaimed money or unclaimed property. So California has one that I’ve gone to because I live here and you can search by last name and city and find out whether you have unclaimed money anywhere. So while I get through any other ones, go look and see if you find any unclaimed money we could have a live report.

Scott:
Yeah, I’m doing this right now.

Mindy:
I found $1,000 once. I don’t remember what it was for, but I was like, “How do I not remember $1,000? It was really crazy.

Scott:
By the way, no one knows me money.

Chris:
So one of the reasons, I don’t know if this was your case, Mindy, but one of the reasons a lot of people have unclaimed money is you go to the hospital, and this is something I learned, I did a whole episode on this if it’s interesting about paying your medical bills. And there’s these crazy things that happen where your insurance might only cover a certain amount and so they’re only allowed to bill you for that amount, but it’s legal for these companies to send you the bill for the rest. So I fractured my foot and they gave me a walking boot and it was like the cheapest crappiest walking boot you get at the hospital relative to the really nice one on Amazon for $50. And I got a bill in the mail for $350 and I was like, “I could buy a better version of this or $50. This is crazy.”
And I had been in touch with this person who eventually came on the podcast, Marshall Allen who wrote this book, Never Pay The First Bill. And I reached out to him and he was like, “oh, well here’s what can happen. Your insurance might’ve only covered $50, so it was a $400 boot and they can make up whatever price they want. ‘This is a 400 boot.’ Insurance says, ‘No, no, no, we’re only paying 50.’ It’s legal for them to send you a letter that says, ‘Hey, the rest of this boot was $350 that your insurance didn’t cover.’” Now what they don’t make clear is that the letter actually says, “If you out of the goodness of your heart want to pay the rest of the $350, you are welcome to, but you are under no legal obligation to.” The letter shows up. It looks like a bill. That’s like “Your insurance didn’t cover the rest you owe $350.
So over the course of getting shingles, I went to emergency room twice because I had no idea what was going on and it was excruciatingly painful and I got all these medical bills that my insurance covered most of, and people were just like, “Oh, do you want to pay the extra fee? The doctor at the insurance… Even though the ER was in network, the doctor wasn’t. And so if you want to pay this extra you can.” And through a series of following his book and playing through these tactics, I ended up owing nothing extra, but I got bills for hundreds and thousands of dollars and one of them I thought was legitimate and I paid $52 and they gave it back to me once the insurance company finally settled it all. But a lot of people, if you have gone and paid these and your insurance company eventually settles it all, that’s where you might be owed money because the hospital might be like, “Oh, we couldn’t find them.” And eventually they have to hand that money over to the state and then the state holds onto it.

Mindy:
Well, I just checked all three states that I have lived in recently and nobody owes me money anymore.

Scott:
That was a great tip about the health bills. That’s awesome. I had no idea that that’s the case.

Chris:
Yeah. On the health side, never pay the first bill. Marshall Allen wrote the book, I’m not going to coin the phrase. But if you get a bill from a medical provider, there are 10 steps you can follow. I did a whole episode, we walked through all of it. There’s a book. Do not pay the first bill you get. There’s 10 reasons that we don’t have time to get into about how you could argue not paying that bill, getting your insurance company to cover it. There’s some laws in different states about not being able to charge you for out-of-network things at an in-network facility that just changed. So that was a great one. On the health side I learned this trick when I was working at Google, just hide the unhealthy things at your house if you feel like you have to have them. Google basically at one point was like, “Well, we don’t want to get rid of the M&M’s because people like M&M’s and we don’t want get rid of the Coke because there are people that really want this and we don’t want them to be mad.”
But they would black out the fridge, the section of the fridge would blacked out with the cokes behind it. And then above that where there’s waters and other things, it was not blacked out. And then the jars on the counter with healthier snacks were clear glass and the other ones were completely blacked out. And they found that they just massively reduced the amount of unhealthy snacks and drinks people were consuming without having to remove them. So if you have unhealthy snacks at home, you don’t have to get rid of them though that’s probably the best move. You could also just obfuscate the cover of them and hide them in less convenient places. Or my favorite on there is just give yourself five minutes every time. So if you see this cookie and you’re like, “I really want that cookie.” Just say, “You know what? I can have the cookie in five minutes.”
Don’t tell yourself you can’t have it. Now you’re depriving yourself and that’s depressing. But if you tell yourself you can have it in five minutes, you feel really good about walking away in five minutes you can eat it, but 90% of the time in that five minutes you’ve gone and done something else and forgotten about it.

Scott:
Love it. By the way, [inaudible 00:41:46] me and Mindy are continuing to giving you updates. My wife is owed between 11 and $49. You are welcome as a dinner guest. Anytime, Chris.

Chris:
Look at that. I hope it’s on the 49 side.

Scott:
Yeah, no bottle of wine necessary.

Chris:
Great. I want an update what it was.

Scott:
Yeah, we’ll have to figure it out later.

Chris:
Back to the spending. This kind of goes in line with kind of my shopping strategy. If I’m buying something online, a lot of people know that you can go to Rakuten and you can sign up and get cashback and there’s a bunch of other sites to do that. I love Cashback Monitor because it basically says, “Here’s all the cashback websites that you could get.” So the way it would work is you want to buy something on a website, you go see if they have the ability to click a link on one of these shopping portal sites and then you earn cash back, or a lot of the credit card companies. So Chase has a portal, you buy it through their portal, you earn one or 2% back in points. So that’s like level one. I kind of go a little crazier sometimes. So if I’m trying to buy something, I will go as far as to see if I can find or even buy coupons.
So there’s this website that’s like, I think it’s savendeals.com, I think. I’ll double check, but I buy Home Depot and Lowe’s gift cards online. And so you can basically go to this website and you pay, they have Crate & Barrel coupon. Oh, I bought it for Crate & Barrel. This couch in the background. I got 10 or 20% off by buying a Crate & Barrel gift card on the internet. And so I’ll always look to see if there’s a way that I can find coupons or buy coupons because if you’re buying a couch, spending $4 to get a coupon that saves you 15% is totally worth it. And then if that doesn’t work, I will go and buy gift cards for the retailer, but I’ll do it wherever I get the most points. So for example, if I needed to buy, we just renovated a bathroom, so we need to buy a toilet.
And I really wanted to splurge for little Japanese toilet built-in toilet seat, heated seats, all the good stuff. And so we wanted it at Lowe’s and I was like, “Okay, I need to buy this.” So I bought a Lowe’s coupon that brought the price down by 10 or 15%. And then I was like, “Well, how do I get the rest of it?” So I went to the grocery store where I get four points per dollar on my Amex Gold card and I bought Lowe’s gift cards because if I use my credit card at Lowe’s, I’m just going to get one or two points per dollar. But if I use my card at the grocery store, I’m getting four. And then so I’m getting the four points on the gift cards. So then I buy the toilet with the, I plugged in the coupon, I went through the shopping portal link to get one or 2% back.
I’m paying with gift cards that I got four points per dollar for. And at the grocery store, you usually don’t get variable amount gift cards. And so that brought it down to there’s still $75 or $80. Then you can go to Amazon and you could buy a gift card to the exact amount you need. It gets delivered and fulfilled instantly. I got the Amazon credit card for 5% back on Amazon. So all in, I think it was like 25% off by stacking cashback portals, buying coupons online and then using the right gift card. And then if you can’t find a coupon online, my hack there is just pop up the live chat on any website and just ask for a discount.
Like 50% of the time I just say, “Hey, I’m shopping on your site. I really would love these floor mats. We got a new car, there’s another format that’s a little less expensive, but I love yours. What can you do?” And I’ve gotten, “Hey, here’s a gift card.” Or “Hey, refresh your cart by clicking this link and you’ll see that I’ve discounted your price.” Or one time someone’s like, “I can’t do you anything. But if you search social media for someone’s referral link, you’ll get 20% off.” So I go to search.twitter.com and I’m like “Referral name of company,” and I find someone who has inevitably posted their referral link on the internet. So anytime I’m buying something online that’s over, I don’t know, $50 or something where this is worth the effort, I try to stack as many of the things as I can to earn as much back or get as much of a deal as I can.

Mindy:
I’m just speechless at all the ways that you can… I thought I was frugal.

Chris:
Yeah, this is pretty impressive.

Mindy:
I’m screwing up left and right compared to you.

Chris:
Look, you can go off the deep end here. I could do this when I’m like, I need to buy a hammer and how can I get my $11 hammer down to $9 and spend 45 minutes saving $2? And honestly, I think maybe the satisfaction I get from saving that $2 is probably worth an amount equivalent to 30 or 45 minutes. But now that I’ve two kids, maybe that’s gone down. So I will say you can go too far. I think a good example of this is I realized when part of this unclaimed money thing, I was like, “Gosh, my information’s on the internet. We have kids, I have podcasts. I don’t really need the whole world knowing where I live.” And if you Google yourself, you’ll find, “Oh wow.” Your address and your phone number and your email address are probably available on the public internet for anyone to find.
And so I was like, “I got to get rid of this.” So I started doing some research and there’s like 600 data brokers who sell your personal information to each other and publish it all over the web. And I was like, “You know what? I’m not going to pay a service to go do this.” And then I was like, “Let’s go find the 600 data brokers, go to each of their websites, request them, remove my information,” and five hours into it, I was like, “What am I doing?” And so I found this company DeleteMe. I went and signed up and for $100 they contact all 600 data brokers and have them all remove all of your personal information off the internet everywhere. And now I challenge you to find my personal address or phone number on the internet because it’s been scrubbed.
And then in true optimization fashion, I went one step further and I emailed them. I was like, “Hey guys, I love your product. I just used it. I got rid of all my information. I have this podcast. I want to talk about it. Do you guys want to be a sponsor of the podcast?” So now they’re a sponsor, allthehacks.com/deleteme get 20% off. But I thought that half of my sponsors ended up coming from me just finding a product I love and reaching out to them and saying, “I love your product. Can I talk about it to my audience?”
And most of those products are ways to optimize your life in some way, shape, or form. And so there’s a great example of figure out how long something’s going to take. Find out if it’s going to be worth your time and whether there’s a service that’ll do it. So my wife got caught in this trap once we have small children and she was thinking, “Oh, it’s time to start feeding our children food.” And we were like, “What are we going to cut it in? What are we going to serve them? How do they get a variety of foods?”
And she was doing all this research and I was like, “Gosh, wouldn’t it be great if someone just made a meal plan for the first 100 days your kid eats and it just has all the ideas of everything there.” And she’s like, “Oh, I found one on the internet, but it’s $30 or something.” And I was like, “You just spent the last seven hours.” I was like, “Can we just pay the $30?” So I think we went, this swings both directions. It’s not optimal now. It’s so optimal. And now we’re finding that middle ground where it’s like, “You know what? This is either worth our time or at the end of the day, the incremental value from picking the best of the three incredible hotels we could stay at in our budget is just not worth it. All three are going to be fine. Pull the trigger.”
And that’s where we balance each other out because we can both find ourselves going down rabbit holes, but if you just kind of think, “Okay, let me bounce this off my wife,” and she’s like, “Yeah, stop. Pick any of the three. It doesn’t matter.” For food I’m always the optimal person. Like “What’s the best thing on the menu?” Someone told me, he’s like, “Narrow it down to two.” I don’t wear a watch, but conceptually, “Pretend you wear a watch, narrow it down to two, call one, right, call the other left. Look where the second hand is and pick it.” Don’t try to get to that last level, that Pareto 80-20 rule. Don’t feel like you have to optimize the last little bit unless it’s a huge thing. If it’s like buying a house, yeah, figure out how to optimize it because it’s a massive purchase. But if it’s what you’re going to have for lunch, maybe don’t spend 30 minutes reading Yelp reviews, trying to get the most optimal thing because you’re probably not even going to remember what it was three weeks from now.

Mindy:
I ask the waiter, “What would you choose the bison burger or the chicken sandwich?” And he’ll be like, “Oh, the chicken sandwich is great. The bison burger is dry.” Great. That made my decision.

Chris:
We did that one time and I asked this waiter, I was like, “How’s the beet salad?” And he goes, “Oh, I hate beets.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” That’s kind of scarred me from like, “Well, what is this person’s personal view on certain types of foods?” You ask that sandwich to a vegan and they’re like, “Both of these are terrible.” But that is my go-to by the way. But I’ve been scarred a little by people who have strong opinions about certain foods.

Scott:
Well, Chris, this has been fantastic. You are a gold mine of information about a large number of little ways to stack enormous savings and save yourself a lot of time as well. This is really impressive. What’s the best way for people to learn more about you and go deep into the rabbit hole of these little tips and tricks?

Chris:
Yeah, if you’re listening to this podcast, you’re probably in a podcast app, so you could probably search for All The Hacks. That’s my show. It’s also at allthehacks.com. We have a newsletter and a podcast each week, and my goal is to help you upgrade and optimize your life, your money, and your travel. And if you want to get in touch, you can find me on social media. You can email me, [email protected]. I love to hear from people and I hope I can help you save money, live a happier, healthier, wealthier life and feel like you got a little back the next time you’re trying to buy something or take an adventure.

Scott:
Nice. That’s awesome. And I’ll tell you what, I’m definitely going to sign up immediately following this recording. This was great.

Mindy:
Yeah, this was an awesome show, Chris. I knew about Autoslash and that’s the only one that I already knew. Everything else was brand new information and I’m super excited to listen to your show every week that it comes out. I appreciate your time today. Thank you so much, and we will talk to you soon.

Chris:
Thanks for having me. This is fun.

Mindy:
All right, Scott, that was Chris Hutchins from All The Hacks podcasts, and that was fantastic. We didn’t share this during the recording, but our producer was sitting in on this episode and she found $183 on unclaimed money just from listening to Chris. So she’s going to invite Chris over to her house for dinner too. Nice job, Kaylin.

Scott:
Yeah, that was really cool. All of us found money, I think, or for either us or our significant others within a few minutes on the search. The unclaimed property thing is legit. Do encourage you, if you’re going to follow that tip to Google your state’s website, yourstate.gov, and follow their link to the unclaimed property because there are some sketchy sites out there. But if you do that, you may find you are owed some money.

Mindy:
Yeah, that’s a great tip. I thought this was a lot of fun and you could make money just by listening to this episode. That’s a bonus. Scott, you ready to go?

Scott:
Let’s do it.

Mindy:
That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. He is Scott Trench, and I am Mindy Jensen saying Take Care Polar Bear.

Scott:
If you enjoyed today’s episode, please give us a five star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you’re looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com/biggerpocketsmoney.

Mindy:
BiggerPockets money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaylin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media. Copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.

Lawrence Yun, National Association of Realtors chief economist, joins ‘Squawk Box’ to discuss the state of the housing market, why he believes it’s a strange market of record-high home prices, deep-slumping home sales, and more.

Putting the Tech In Bio: Why Cash Still Flows To European Biotech Startups

Amid ongoing concerns about declining VC funding in the United Kingdom, Biotech startups have been doing rather well. According to the U.K. Bio Association, businesses working in the sector raised £563 million in venture capital and public funding in the three months to September. Following a sluggish start to the year, the Association predicts the industry is on course to exceed the levels of funding seen in 2022. Meanwhile, KPMG’s latest U.K. Venture Pulse report notes that Biotech – along with AI and climate tech – is set to dominate the investment agenda.

So what is going on? Why are Biotech startups enjoying a moment in the sun?

James Field is CEO and founder of LabGenius, a London-based Biotech company focused on discovering the “next generation” of therapeutic antibodies. As he sees it, the growing importance of the U.K. Biotech sector is partly due to the coming together of two previously distinct disciplines – namely biology and machine learning.

The combination has the potential to accelerate the development of treatments that would previously have either eluded researchers or taken many years to develop. Referencing his own company’s work, he says: “The human brain has zero intuition about the design of these molecules,” he says.

To augment the work of human researchers, Lab Genius has created a robotic platform that designs experiments, analyzes the results and also learns from previous experiments.

Accelerated Development

What will this combination of AI and biology mean in practice? Umza Choudry has worked as a research scientist in the fields of photochemistry and synthetic biology and today she leads on Tech Bio strategy at VC fund Octopus Ventures.

In Choudry’s view, researchers have often struggled to understand the sheer amount of biological information at their disposal. “There is an enormous amount of material but it is hard to visualize,” she says.

That is changing. The power of AI to automate workflow and analyze data is paving the way for new treatments. Hence the upturn of VC interest in the Tech Bio sector.

Choudry cites a number of areas where the combination of AI and biology is set to make breakthroughs. She expects new and more targeted therapies and also – crucially – lower costs. Whether healthcare is funded by tax – as in the UK – or private insurance, the cost of treatment is a crucial factor. One potential benefit of the Tech Bio revolution is its potential to “democratize” access to cutting-edge medical technologies by making it easier to develop and scale new solutions.

To some extent, we’re already seeing that democratisation in action. As Choudry points out, reading human genes is now simple. Editing them is nother matter. However Crispr editing tools are not only paving the way for new treatments, they are also making the process of manipulating genes a lot less costly.

So naturally enough VCs are taking notice. Sajith Wickramasekar is the founder of Benchling, a California-based company that provides a cloud-based data management and collaboration platform for companies working in the biology, and Biotech fields. He cites the breakthroughs that are creating new business opportunities. “RNA, Gene Therapies, Antibodies. That is what investors see.”

Risk Factors

But as Choudry acknowledges, Tech Bio is risky. The timelines are long, the development of new technologies tends to be capital-intensive and there are no guarantees of success. However, it is a risk that increasing numbers of VCs are willing to take. “Around 2021, investors were starting to get interested in riskier areas, Choudry says. “We are also seeing European VCs wanting exposure to more specialized areas, although in Europe we don’t have many specialist fund managers.”

One potential limiting factor for traditional VCs is the time it takes to bring Tech Bio-originated products to the market. “The timelines are slightly longer,” Choudry says. “The hold time could be about 10 to 12 years.” That won’t suit many VCs. Octopus, however, is an evergreen fund, making it easier to commit capital for longer.

Despite a robust investment environment in 2023, there are some concerns about the immediate future. “A lot of money went into Tech Bio in 2021 and that was helpful. The big challenge now is that the markets have turned, we’re in a non-zero interest rate environment and a lot of Biotech companies on the public market are trading below cash,” says Field.

On the plus side, here in the U.K., the life sciences are a priority area for policymakers – not least because there is an opportunity to support a well-established science base that could yield huge commercial returns. There is a considerable amount of grant funding and also tax incentives to underpin R&D.

The Talent Challenge

Arguably one of the biggest challenges in the Tech Bio field is access to quality data. That raises the question of where the information required to build AI models actually comes from.

In the case of Labgenius, biology provides data for the AI operation. “We have a sophisticated wet lab that generates data,” says Field.

That double-sided operation points to a further challenge. As Wickramasekara points out, Tech Bio companies are recruiting from two highly competitive pools.

“Another challenge is talent,” says James’ company has a wet lab and also a data side. That’s not unusual in this sector. But now you have to walk and chew gum,” says Wickramasekar.

Not only must Tech Bio founders recruit people with the necessary skills, they also have to create an environment and culture where people can work effectively together. Sometimes the collaboration is remote. For instance, Labgenius has its biologists working in Oxford while the AI operation is in London. However, Wickramasekara is keen to stress that cross-fertilisation should be celebrated. “‘I’ve seen people moving over from tech to biology,” he says. That is very exciting.”

Umza Choudry agrees. “When you bring together different disciplines you are also bringing together different mental models. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. You have people approaching the problem from different angles.”

It’s still early days for Tech Bio, but the potential to accelerate the development of new treatments suggests it will continue to suck in investor cash.

Rob:
Welcome to the BiggerPockets Podcast, show 848. We know you’re going to get a lot out of today’s story. We’re here with Keleisha, and she’s going to be talking about how she built a portfolio that brings in $5,000 per month.

Henry:
She’s also going to be talking to us about the things she’s changing and tweaking to adapt in this current market.

Rob:
Yes. Yeah, and I’m here. I’m Rob Abasolo, your host of the show, joined here by my good friend, Henry Washington. And this is what we try to do on the BiggerPockets Podcast show every single week. We bring you stories, how-tos and answers that you need in order to make smart real estate decisions now in today’s current market. Keleisha, welcome to the show. How you doing?

Keleisha:
Hey guys. I’m doing fantastic. I’m so happy to be here. 2019 in the making. It’s here.

Rob:
A little bit of background on you, Keleisha. Your portfolio is currently five units in the Smoky Mountains, San Antonio, Florida, Atlanta and Virginia market. You’re joining us from Tampa. You’ve done 15-plus deals in the past three years, and I think you gross $18,000 per month from properties, but your net is about $4,000 to $5,000 per month. Did I miss anything?

Keleisha:
No. You’re solid, right on point.

Rob:
Awesome. And what about you, Henry? Where are you joining us from? It looks like you’re in Nashville at the moment with your collection of guitars in the background.

Henry:
It does look like I’m in Nashville. I am not. I am here in Northwest Arkansas, but I’m recording this at a good friend of mine who owns a recording studio here. I’m actually having a meetup later here. So thought I’d come and take advantage of this beautiful background and make myself look cooler than I am.

Rob:
Awesome. Well, a little surprise for everyone that sticks around until the end, Henry’s actually going to pull one of those guitars down and serenade us a little song, a little ditty. So it’s a special tune he wrote for the BiggerPockets’ listeners.
So to jump right into your story, Keleisha, you moved to the US in 2018 from Jamaica. And when you got to the US, you picked up a job, busing tables and hostessing. Can you tell us what your first summer felt like and what was going through your mind at that time?

Keleisha:
Man, it was scary. I was going into a whole new playing field because I’ve never worked in a restaurant before, coming from corporate Jamaica, doing marketing. And to give up that job to go busing tables, I’m like, “What am I doing? This is too scary.”
And it was at the same time, very exciting because I was touching on something completely new that I’ve never done before. So that little scariness, I think it pushed me to be like, “Try something new.”

Rob:
That’s cool. What were you doing in Jamaica? What was your line of work at that time?

Keleisha:
So I was doing marketing for an insurance company, one of the biggest insurance company back home, and I got the ideal job everyone would say after graduating. But I think after that, the marketing… Corporate sucked the life out of me and it made me lost the passion that I had for marketing. So I’m like, “I needed something new. I needed to take a risk with my life and decided to move to the US.”

Henry:
I was just about to ask that. I wanted you to dive a little deeper. What was driving that decision? Because that’s a big leap of faith. We just casually covered that you just moved to another country.

Rob:
No big deal.

Henry:
And took a job, waitressing instead of marketing like it was nothing. That’s a big transition. What drove that?

Keleisha:
Man, I was at the part of my life where I was trying to figure out what I need to do. And I think I was just being surrounded by people who were just there in the job for years. And all they did was complain, “I hate this job, I hate this job.” And I’m like, “I don’t want to be in this position.”
And I think that year, for me, the theme was “take risk.” I didn’t know what that was, but it was just to take risk. And I was like, “I’m going to quit my job and I’m going to move to the US.” I know a lot of other Jamaicans who quit their job, left the country to go to the US to chase the American dream. And for us too, it’s also to make more money. So I was like, “I’m going to do that.”

Rob:
And did you come alone or did other people in your family… Did someone join you or was this a solo journey?

Keleisha:
So that’s the crazy part. I did it alone.

Rob:
Wow.

Keleisha:
I did it all alone, left my mom and my brother back home. She didn’t want me to leave either. She was like, “Are you sure you want to do this?” But at the end of the day, she was very supportive with everything that I was doing.

Henry:
And I heard you say something when we talked about you taking the job in the restaurant industry, you said that that was scary. You were doing a corporate marketing job, but talked about the restaurant industry as a scary job. What made that scary to you?

Keleisha:
Because people think that working in a restaurant, it’s easy. And for me, back home, our culture, for you to give up the perfect job to go serve someone, they consider you to be the help. And I think in the restaurant space, a lot of persons look down on you based on what you’re doing.
And I’m like, “I’ve never done something like that before.” And it was very insulting. It was a lot of pride for me. I didn’t tell a lot of friends what I was doing. I was very active on social media, and I wasn’t even posting those things I was doing on social media. Only when I went for a break, then I would post, “Oh, I’m traveling.” And people would be like, “How are you traveling?”
But I was embarrassed too. I was very embarrassed because to leave, as you said, your corporate job to go clean tables, clean toilets, to have someone do this, snap fingers at you and stuff like that, it’s something that I’ve never experienced and it was also a very humbling moment for me as well.

Rob:
Got it. The first job I ever had, I was actually a busboy and I used to serve chips and salsa. And when people run out of their chips and salsa, they are quite feisty and they are not the nicest person to you. So I totally feel for you there, and I think it’s a really brave leap. It’s hard enough to move.
I’ve moved a couple times with my wife across the country and that’s really scary. So to do it by yourself shows a tremendous amount of bravery and courage. And we’re going to talk about how your waitressing job was actually a good thing for your future in real estate. But before we do, we’re going to have a quick break.
And we’re back here with Keleisha, and we just talked about how you had this big move from Jamaica back to the United States or to the United States rather. And you quit your job in corporate to work in the restaurant industry. You mentioned you still had family back in Jamaica. Can you tell us about your relationship with your mom and your brother?

Keleisha:
So I have a very tight relationship, a really good relationship with my mom and my brother. I grew up as an only child, so it was always just me and my mom, and then my brother came in the picture 15 years ago. So everything, all I’ve known is just Keleisha and Nadin. And even when I moved to college, back when I went to college, it was hours away and we still had a great relationship there as well.
But I think one of the scary thing when I moved was my mom also depended on me. What that mean is she looked towards me in terms of making better for her, making better for me because she didn’t know better. So when she saw me pushing myself, I think that’s why she was so supportive because she’s like, “Okay, I don’t know how to guide you, but it seems like you have that drive and you know what you want. I’m just going to support you in what you’re doing.” And I think when even my brother was born, which is crazy, I hated it. When I found out she was pregnant. I was like, “No, I want to be the only child.”

Rob:
Typical big sister.

Keleisha:
I was like, “I want to be the only child.” But then when he came in the picture, I saw the same trend that was happening to me growing up. So as I said, it was just me and my mom and my father. He wasn’t that involved financially. And I saw the same thing with my brother as well.
So I was like, “Yeah, I need to break that trend. I’m here, I left them. I need to make sure I work and I make some money so I can take care of them, whatever is it that they need. Even if I’m here in the US and I’m suffering, I don’t have food or anything like that, as long as I know her rent is covered, food and she’s good and they’re good, I’m solid.”

Henry:
First of all, I want to comment on the sibling rivalry. I have two daughters. I have a five-year-old and a three-year-old. And I remember when we brought home our youngest daughter, my oldest at the time was two, and we were like, “Here is your new sister.” We handed her the baby, and she put one hand on her, looked at her and goes, “Hmm, all done, baby. All done, baby.”
So this sounds like you had a similar experience. Here’s what I love about what you said, it’s that you took this giant leap of faith and you knew you wanted to do something better for yourself, but felt this obligation to take care of home and the people at home, and this is something you were doing before real estate.
A lot of people are probably thinking, “I came and I did a bunch of real estate and then I could send money home.” No, you were doing this when you were waiting tables and being a server and taking care of those around you. And I just want to make sure that you get your flowers for having that heart and that mindset.

Keleisha:
Ah, thank you.

Rob:
Yeah. So Keleisha, was it ever an option for your mom and your brother to come to America with you?

Keleisha:
So the crazy thing is first, my brother is a citizen and the condition that they knew I was living in, they knew I was trying to figure it out. It wasn’t an option for them to come yet. But this is one thing I always tell them. I always said, “When the time is right, you guys will come.” Because I don’t want you guys to come here and suffer the way how I was. I don’t want my mom to be doing certain jobs that I didn’t want to do.
So I said, “When I know that I make enough money, when I can get you your house and you have your place to rent…” Because I can’t live with my mom, and she knows that. I was like, “We’re not living together at all.” So when I told her that, she was like, “You know what? I understand.” She always tell me… And I’m going to quote this in Patwa. She always like, “Do what you have to do, me girl.” What that mean is, “Do what you have to do. Whatever it is that you need to do, just do what you got to do. I’ll be here when you’re ready.”

Henry:
How important was it for you to know you had that support back home backing you up no matter what, win or lose?

Keleisha:
Man, it means so much. Even getting ready for this interview, my mom called me, and she just started praying and she started crying. And she started going back down memory lane. She’s like, “I remember when it was just us and we were doing this.” And she’d be like, “We’ve been coming from so far.” And I was like, “Mom, just calm down, just relax.”
But I think it truly means a lot. And I’ve heard so many different stories where persons don’t have a strong support system. And I think that’s something I’m extremely grateful for. Your support doesn’t have to be a large group of people, but if you have that one or two persons that means a lot to you, if you know that you have their support when you feel like giving up and you can just call and be like, “Hey, it’s tough.”
My mom used to call me and she used to see bags under my eyes and she starts crying. She’s like, “Come back home. I don’t like how you look. Come back home. You’re not eating, you’re not sleeping.” I lost so much weight. And I was like, “No, I’m not coming back home.”

Rob:
So tell me more. You’re busing tables and at first, you think that you’re going to be in the US temporarily or you’re going to be working this job and work through it and move up the ladder. Then what happens? How does that job go?

Keleisha:
So it’s crazy. So I went to that job on Martha’s Vineyard for one summer. And apparently, it seemed like I did a good job. The owner was like, “Can you just stay for the rest of the season?” I’m like, “Sure.” I went back the following season to do food running. So I got promoted from hostessing and busing tables to food running, which is taking the food from the kitchen to the table. What crazy enough is that the year after, I ended up doing food running and got promoted to being a manager.

Rob:
Whoa.

Keleisha:
So I was doing two roles at once. Yes.

Rob:
That’s cool.

Keleisha:
And after he was like, “I can’t have you doing both roles. Let’s just switch you over to managing the restaurant full time.” And for me, again, this is completely new for me. I’m managing staff, everything like that. But I think in being in that position, it opened my eyes to so many different things. I learned a lot about myself, how to be patient, how to come up with solutions, especially being under pressure.
And it also helped me to connect with so many different persons. Because now I am having conversation with customers who are coming in, and they’ll be like, “Oh, what do you do? You’re such an intelligent young lady, blah, blah, blah.” And I’m like, “Oh, this is my background, and I’m looking to get into real estate.”
That was the kicker because when I mentioned that, everyone thought it’s an opportunity for them to tell me that, “Oh, I do this here, I do that there.” So I’m like, “Oh, really? Tell me more.” So it was also a learning opportunity for me even though I had no clue about real estate, but other persons were telling me about their experience and giving advice of things, what I could do.

Henry:
Man, this is fantastic because one thing you said that I love was that when your mom mentioned, “Hey, do you need to come back home?” when she saw you were losing weight and took that as a sign that maybe you weren’t able to feed yourself, this was a plan A, there’s no plan B. This is going to work. And I think that that is the exact mentality that new investors need to have when they’re getting into this space.
Because I think a lot of people try to get into real estate and they try, they give it a go. And trying doesn’t mean success. You really have to have a mindset of, “I’m going to find success no matter what it takes,” because this business is hard. The past maybe three years or four years, it’s been a whole lot easier than it has been now.
But I think people are really starting to see that, “Oh, crap, you can screw up in this business and it will hurt if you’re not paying attention.” And you’re seeing a lot of people quit now because it’s a lot harder than it was a few years ago. And so having that mindset, I think obviously was beneficial to you starting your business. And I think that more people need to take that from your story and have that mindset.
And the second thing is you tell everybody what you do and you introduce yourself with that title, whether you’ve had success in it or not. Because if you introduce yourself as an investor, even if you’ve never done a deal, it’s going to open the door to people wanting to help you and give you the things that that person or that type of person gets.
If you want to be an investor and you say, “Hey, yes, I’m a server, but I am a real estate investor. I’m looking to do my first deal.” And they know you’re waiting tables.

Keleisha:
Oh, my God. Yeah.

Henry:
Real estate investors want to help. They’re like, “Oh, yeah, we got to help. Yeah, let’s help you get up out of here.” And it opens that door.

Rob:
We had Amy Mahjoory on the show, man, I want to say about a year ago. And her thing is she raises money from people, and the way she introduces herself to her Trader Joe’s cashier or her Uber driver or whatever, she’ll say, “Hi, I’m Amy, and I help people get double-digit returns back by real estate.” I think she calls it her 10-second power pitch or something like that.

Keleisha:
Power pitch. Mm-hmm.

Rob:
It’s 13 words and it just gets someone to say, “Oh, what does that mean?” And then you start the conversation. So I think it’s a good lesson for everyone at home if you’re breaking into the business, make it very clear to everyone that you ever talk to or ever meet that you want to get into real estate. Because oftentimes, when someone’s a real estate investor, they want help from a newbie to do free work. And I think that’s a really great way to break into the business.
So with that, I have a quick question about this whole situation. You said that you’re moving up the corporate ladder, if you will, in the restaurant business. Do you happen to remember what you were making back then? What was the income like then, especially compared to what you were earning back in Jamaica?

Keleisha:
A lot of money. A lot.

Rob:
Really?

Keleisha:
Oh, yes. When I got into hostessing, the first job and when I saw the money… So when I just started, I think I was making about 700 bucks a week, and that doesn’t include tips. That would work out to be what my monthly pay would have been back home.

Rob:
Wow.

Henry:
So you were making per week what you would make in a month in Jamaica?

Keleisha:
Yeah. When I told my mom, I was like, “Oh, my gosh.” And then when I started making crazy tips, I was like, “Huh.” But I think the thing was, for me, I was like, “I want to keep making more money, more money.” I was like, “I need to have enough money.” But I was being trapped in the cycle of, “I just want more money.”
And it’s so hard to come out of that cycle because you see all the money that you can make and you’re like, “I’m just going to give it one more season.” And I think the money can be bad, but it can also be good. But I think it got to a point where during the off season, because we’re a very seasonal restaurant, and I was like, “I need to do more with my life. I need to do something else.”
Because I’m the person who I always have things figured out. And I didn’t have a clue at that time what I wanted to do at all. And honestly, persons asked me how I made the decision and I said, “Hey, I asked myself two questions. I love watching HGTV and I love watching Food Network.”

Henry:
Me too.

Keleisha:
I love eating the food. I love it. I was like, “I love eating the food and I will try the food, but I’m not going to cook it.” And I was like, “Well, let’s try this thing called HGTV, let’s try this real estate thing.” And honestly, guys, all I did, like everyone else, I went on Google, “How to start investing in the US?” And BiggerPockets came up, and that’s how I started. Literally, just putting it all in Google. And from there…

Rob:
That’s amazing. And so did you jump into the forums? Were you listening to the podcasts? What were the big moments for you whenever you stumbled upon the BiggerPockets community as a whole?

Keleisha:
I would say the forums was it. But for me, it was so overwhelming because I didn’t know which direction to take, where to start. I didn’t have anyone that I could ask for guidance or anything like that. But I got into the forums, and the forums, I saw a lot of person being engaged, asking questions and then I pivot into the podcasts.
And so I was doing both the podcasts, the forums, and I was also doing, I think… I don’t know if you guys still do, but the Free Guides, Beginner’s Guide to Real Estate Investing. So I went through all those. I was like, “Give me all the free books.” And I went through those, and I think one of the hiccup that I was getting into was I thought I could get a loan.
I was like, “All right, I’m ready to go.” And I’m talking to lenders and they’re like, “What’s your credit score?” I’m like, “700 and this.” They’re like, “Okay. How much money do you make?” And I’m like, “This amount.” They’re like, “Oh, you’re the perfect candidate.” Guys, there’s something on the loan application that always ask you, “Are you a US citizen?” And I’m like, “No.”
And I was like, “But I look good on paper.” They’re like, “Yeah, you’re not a Green Card holder either.” I was like, “Well, if I give you a case number, would that help?” They’re like, “Nope, we need a government issue ID.”

Henry:
So when you say case number, you mean you would apply for the Green Card, but it wasn’t approved yet?

Keleisha:
Correct. So still going through that process. And I think during that time, you know when you think that you got over analysis paralysis and then you think you have everything figured out, but then you hit this other roadblock?

Henry:
Yeah.

Keleisha:
And I’m like, “All right.” But then the crazy thing is a lot of lenders weren’t giving me solutions. So then I went back to the forums because again, the BiggerPockets forum, that was my network of people that I could always go and ask question for. So I went back to the forum and I searched, “How to get a loan as an immigrant?” So I made sure to put that in. And then someone directed me, which is crazy… directed me to an episode with Diego Corzo.

Henry:
My God.

Rob:
Oh, he is so-

Henry:
My God

Rob:
… nice. Yes. Oh, my God, he’s the best.

Keleisha:
Let me tell you that episode, when I listened to that episode, I was like, “Yes, I knew there is a way. I knew I’m not the only person who want to get into real estate as an immigrant.” And everything that he shared, how he got his first investment property, I was like, “This is insane. This is amazing.”
And the fact that he didn’t have a lot of the things that I still had, he had really bad credit score or no credit score at all. He just had money and his passport. And I’m like, “If he did it, then I can do it.” And I remember just DMing after that episode. Spoke to him, talked to an attorney, and that’s how I got my first property too. So shout out to Diego.

Rob:
Diego, I think he’s realdiegocorzo on Instagram. But he does the Tip of the Day. And he found me at BPCON two weeks ago, and I was like, “Can you do a Tip of the Day?” He’s a very nice guy. Highly recommend checking out his content. Very, very nice and a bucket full of sunshine, if you will.

Keleisha:
Yes.

Rob:
So to clarify, Keleisha, what was the takeaway from that episode that made a difference for you?

Keleisha:
So with Diego, he mentioned that he just partnered with his uncle and they just got an LLC. He funded a deal and his uncle was a citizen. And then he ended up just getting a loan using the LLC. When I heard what he explained, I realized that I need to get a partner in order to figure out this financing option.

Rob:
So you come across this episode and you feel inspired, you start working with an attorney. Tell us about your first deal. What ended up happening?

Keleisha:
So first deal, firstly, I did out-of-state investing. So my first deal was in Memphis. And it took a little while for me to figure out Memphis because again, I don’t know much about the States, so I don’t know which states to start from. So BiggerPockets, the person on the forum recommended three states: Kansas City, Cleveland, Ohio, Memphis. So I did a full-blown research, my partner and I at that time.
And we decided to go in Memphis. Took us a year because we were like, “We need to learn the area, learn the zip codes, all that stuff.” Got our first BRRRR deal in Memphis, Tennessee. Should’ve been a BRRRR. We got this deal from a wholesaler because again, we were taught that. I learned that the best deals come from wholesalers. So went on Facebook groups, got connected with a bunch of wholesalers and stuff like that, found a wholesaler.
And I told him, “Hey, we’re in town. Do you have any properties that you can take a look at?” So again, we took the risk and went to the city just to see if we can get a property. Got the first deal. It was in an ideal neighborhood of Memphis that we wanted. And he was selling for about $30,000. And we had our contractors/project manager, which we also found on BiggerPockets. Guys, I’m going to mention them a lot because-

Rob:
Hey, that’s okay. You can plug us. It’s our podcast.

Keleisha:
They’re all my resources. And he walked the property with us and he’s like, “Oh, my God, guys. This is going to need a lot of work.” We’re like, “Yeah, we know. We’re excited about it. We want to do it.” He was like, “Are you guys crazy? You live out of state. This is a full gut.” Roof was missing, only had framing. You could see the plumbing in the floor, everything.
We were like, “No, this is where the money’s at. This is what we learnt about.” So we made an offer for that deal for 19,000. The wholesaler said, “No, you need best and final offer.” We got it for 25,500. So we beat out another investor. And then we use hard money to get the rehab and the purchase.
The great thing, guys, was that we had money saved up because we thought we would need money for the deal. But we found a fantastic hard moneylender who gave us 100% finance for the purchase and 100% of the rehab.

Rob:
Oh, wow.

Keleisha:
So we were like, “Yes, this is going to be the perfect BRRRR that David always talk about being zero out of pocket. This is going to be amazing.”

Rob:
So walk me through this really fast. So you found a wholesaler in Memphis and they had a property that was 30,000 bucks. And you made an offer. This wholesaler was like, “Dude, how are you going to do this? There’s barely walls in this place.” And you guys came in and you offered a lower amount. You settled on 25,500 bucks. And then you actually found a hard moneylender who would finance pretty much the entire thing. And was it a pretty easy-peasy renovation?

Keleisha:
Oh, no.

Rob:
Okay. Yeah, thought so.

Keleisha:
Oh, no. No, no, no.

Rob:
The beginning of this was just too positive. I was like, “There’s no way.”

Keleisha:
No. Trust me, it wasn’t. Firstly, we found out that the plumbing and the electrical was done incorrectly.

Rob:
Perfect.

Keleisha:
When our contractor told us, we were like, “Come on.” We were like, “How much is this going to cost right now?” So we did a couple bids and it came up to 7,000. And I was like, “Please don’t… I don’t want anything else to go wrong.” After that, thank God, everything went smoothly. When we were almost getting ready to do the refinance, this is where the nother issue came in.
You’re not a US citizen, I can’t refinance. I’m like, “Guys, come on. You run our credit,” my partner at the time, “you run both of our credits two times and said, ‘You guys are good to go, and she’ll let you know when it’s time to do refinance’ and then nothing. Now it’s an issue.” So here’s a tricky thing, and I would highly recommend with anyone getting in, when talking to lenders, talk to as many lenders as possible because you always need to have a backup plan because one lender said that, “You guys are good. It’s a solid deal. Let’s do a refinance. We’re good.”
Only find out that my partner, who had his Green Card, “Oh, he needs two years of self-employment tax return.” He only had one. Then I still look good on paper. So remember what I mentioned that Diego directed us on what to do. After speaking with our attorney, we got an LLC. So we got an entity to show that we’re both partners and then that way, we would get a loan in the entity itself. So in doing that, it was still an issue because I could not own more than 25% of the entity. So you see all the roadblocks that keep-

Rob:
Right. And I’m sure you’re finding this out seconds before closing. I feel like that’s how it always is, is-

Keleisha:
All of it.

Rob:
… the lender says, “No, you’re good.” And then you’re at the closing table. They’re like, “Well, actually we need this receipt from your chipotle order in 2013.”

Keleisha:
All the time. And keep in mind this time too, we already figured out we can’t even use the first lender to do refinance. We’re now on month seven. So we had to pay for a hard money loan extension, the renewal fee.

Henry:
Those are cheap.

Keleisha:
Plus the extension. Ah, so expensive. But I’m so glad that hard money allowed us to wrap the interest payment into the loan. So at this time as well, we were not out of pocket for the interest payments at all. And he was like, “If you guys hit to month eight, you’re going to have to start paying the interest payment.”
So I think we still were having hiccups and we had to make a decision in terms of, “Do we really want to keep this house or do we sell?” Because these are now three lenders who said that they can refinance, but they can’t. So we really had to just make the decision and just end up listing that property for sale.

Henry:
So you got a crash course in real estate investing on your first deal. I call that project that you did a fix and flip. That’s pretty much how they go. There’s very few where it’s like, “Hey, we got it and then we painted it and then we sold it for all kinds of money.” But that’s the whole point is you learn lessons along the way. You made pivots, you made the right pivots, you didn’t let anything just stop you.
You always looked at things through a lens of, “How can I resolve this?” or “How can I get this fixed?” And that mindset will always serve you well. One thing I want to ask you that I think people are going to want to hear about is you mentioned that you had looked at three markets. So you went and you got recommendations on three markets. And then you did, I think you said, a year’s worth of research before you dove in.
I think that that’s hugely important that we highlight that you didn’t just go and say, “Hey, BiggerPockets people, tell me where to invest.” And then they say some cities and then you go buy properties there. I think people do that. And so what would you say or what advice would you give to people or what should people be looking at when they are evaluating markets out of state to invest in? What did you guys look for?

Keleisha:
What we did was we just found other investors in the area and asked them to share their experience in terms of, “Hey, why are you investing in using this strategy in that market?” And we would take notes. And if we learnt that it’s a zip code basis or a street by street basis, then we ask those investors, “Which zip codes should we look into and why?”
So when we did that portion of it, the zip code was very heavy for us. Then we looked on, “Is this a market where persons are renting a lot or are they buying?” It came down to Memphis was where you can get the 1% rule, one of the best market where you can get 1% rule. What that mean is if you purchase a house for 100,000, you can get rent for 1,000 or more or even 900 bucks.
So it came down to the 1% rule, it came down to the zip codes, and it also came down to, I think, with Memphis, the big companies. What big companies are there in that market? For us in Memphis, it was Amazon, it was Nike and it was known as the distribution hub. So a lot of big companies stop in the middle of Memphis. So we’re like, “Bingo.” And we decided to choose the zip codes that were super close to Amazon and Nike because those people are going to always need somewhere to live.
So we didn’t go far away. And all of this, guys, we figured it out after just talking to other investors. Each investor told us something completely new, and we just start adding it to… I had a full notebook. You know those section notebooks where you can section it off? Each city had a section. And everything that we learned, sticky note, just making notes. And while we were going along, building our team as well for each person that we spoke to.

Henry:
So you made an out-of-state investing scrapbook.

Keleisha:
Yes.

Rob:
That’s really smart, Keleisha. I think yes, finding some of these big business hubs and putting properties around there, never going to be a bad idea. Can you tell us what the actual total price of the renovation and then the total sale price, so we understand the numbers on this one? Because I know you said you bought it for 25,500 bucks.

Keleisha:
So bought it for 25,500. The rehab amount was 52,000, and then it increased to 59,000.

Henry:
That ain’t bad.

Keleisha:
When we bought this property, we estimated the ARV to be 100,000. When it was time to resell, we listed it for 117, and then we sold it for 125.

Rob:
Hey, there we go. Wow.

Henry:
That’s solid.

Keleisha:
Yeah. We were like, “Yay!”

Rob:
That’s solid. Nothing like coming $25,000 over your initial ARV.

Keleisha:
Listen, I remember when we got the direct deposit, my partner was like, “Oh, my God, we got paid.” And for us just to see that amount, again, from our background, that’s a lot of money from one deal. And we got this drive to be like, “Oh, we need another one. We need to get one more deal.”
Because we saw the money and it looked so good. But I think one of the biggest lesson for me then was to pause and enjoy the moment and soak it all in, instead of want to get to the next step because we tend to forget that a lot. So when I look back on when we just started now, every deal that I close, I take time to soak up that moment and celebrate it.

Rob:
That’s amazing. That’s amazing. So you pull a $40,000 profit on the first property, rough numbers there.

Keleisha:
Roughly. Mm-hmm.

Rob:
So you did one more fix and flip and then you shifted to short-term rentals, if I understand that correctly.

Keleisha:
Yeah.

Rob:
What were your biggest lessons from fix and flips in general?

Keleisha:
Oh, it’s not for me. It gives me anxiety.

Rob:
That’s a great lesson.

Henry:
That’s a fantastic lesson.

Rob:
That’s the best lesson you could learn. That’s a lesson I’m learning right now every single time I get into a flip.

Keleisha:
Listen, it’s too much anxiety. I like anything that is buying whole, minor rehab. Plus, we were doing all of this remotely too. So I’m like, “No way. I’m not doing that again.” And just the fact that you list it, you’re like, “How soon am I going to sell it? Are we going to get any offers?” I was like, “No, that just gave me too much anxiety.”
But it was also too that everything that you do, you need to have two exit strategies. And that didn’t hit me until this year to be like, “Everything that you’re doing, make sure you have two exit.” And when I look back, I feel like every single deal, I always had to pivot. Every single deal. I can’t think of any one deal where I started with one strategy and ended with the same strategy. I was like, “Okay, this is a trend. This is completely a trend.” Stick to your criteria.

Rob:
I think the important thing is that you tried it, right?

Keleisha:
Yes.

Rob:
You tried it, you did it, you found a solution, you pivoted. I think the most important skill you can learn as a real estate investor is how to pivot instead of sitting there and floundering. And if you can pivot quickly, you can be successful in whatever type of real estate you learn to do, so long as you have multiple exit strategies, which I think is a very important lesson for people.
So you found out fix and flips not really your thing. You shifted into short-term rentals, and I believe you have three. How are you funding these now? And how do you keep an edge in this particular market?

Keleisha:
Ooh, creative financing and private money all day every day.

Rob:
And what do you mean by creative financing?

Keleisha:
So creative financing, meaning you’re taking over the property subject to or seller financing. So I’m going to go back a little bit before knowing that I was one, using private money or two, structuring these creatively. When we got the first property in the Smoky Mountains, we got a DSCR loan. And with the DSCR loan, you need about 20% to 25% down. That time, for us, it was about 130,000 altogether that we needed.

Rob:
And really fast, for everyone at home that doesn’t know what a DSCR loan is, it’s a debt service coverage ratio loan. And it’s basically where they use the income of your property to underwrite instead of using your personal DTI and credit and everything like that.
There’s a few other parameters, but essentially they’re using the income, the projected income of that property to qualify you for that loan. Sorry, I wanted to clarify that because I know a lot of people, they just hear acronyms sometimes. So carry on.

Keleisha:
So we used the DSCR loan and then we had money from our fix and flip, but we were still short. So because we were telling friends and family what we were doing and what we were hoping to do, we went to them and we were like, “Hey, we want to get this property, but we’re short about 50 to 60,000,” just putting it out there. And then two persons from our network decided to give us money.
So even though they’re friends and family, we didn’t know it was private money. So what we did, we were like, “Hey, can you just lend us this money, and we will just give you a percentage of the cash flow?” We were just throwing things out there. We didn’t do a promissory note, a mortgage deed or anything like that. We were like, “We’ll give you a percentage of the cash flow for anything that we make, and whenever during the slow season, you can go to the cabin and stay there.”
That was the agreement. That’s it. So that was the first creative deal that we got. And then after now I just buy most of the properties, creative financing and then whatever I need, closing cost or decorate, furnishing costs, I raise that amount in private money and get the deal funded. So most times I’m zero out of pocket.

Henry:
I’d be willing to bet too that a lot of what made this research of learning how to do creative finance and subject to financing more maybe achievable for you is because of your background and you knowing, “I need an alternative strategy.” And so when your back’s against the wall, there’s no other option. You’re going to go figure out, “How can I get this done?”
I’m not saying that to discourage people from going to learn how to do these things. I’m saying that from the perspective of put yourself in that mindset, what if you could never go to a bank again? Would that mean you’re never going to be a real estate investor? If you think from that perspective, “Okay, I’m going to pretend I can’t go to a bank for my next deal. So I got to go and learn how would I buy a property if I couldn’t.” And that just helps you sharpen the tools in your tool belt.
So I think that that’s super cool. You also are pivoting or have pivoted to more of a mid-term rental strategy. Is that correct? And so how is this mid-term rental strategy going for you? And how are you either growing or expanding that? What have you learned that’s making you push to that direction?

Keleisha:
So full disclosure, I haven’t done my first mid-term rental yet. I’m literally still going through that process.

Rob:
Cool.

Keleisha:
The reason being trying to pivot is that I think I got spoiled with the Smoky Mountains. I got so spoiled.

Rob:
As we all do.

Keleisha:
Because for the entire year, it’s a great market. I’m always booked. And then when I got another property in San Antonio, I was like, “Hmm, I’m not used to with just this weekends type of thing, and my calendar is open during the week.” So I always heard about mid-term rentals. So what I did was I had a really good friend of mine in one of my mentorship, and I asked her about… She’s the expert again. This is why I go to persons who are doing it. I don’t want to figure out everything.
So I was like, “Hey, this is what I’m trying to do. What are some things that I can do?” And she’d be like, “Okay, go on ALE, list a property there. Go on Furnished Finder, list a property there.” Did all of that. Not working. I’m like, “Okay.” Spoke to someone else. They’re like, “Hey, put ‘Extended Stay’ in your listing in the title.” I was like, “Okay, I’m going to try that.”
So in doing all of this, I went back and look on the algorithm. I’m like, “Ooh, I put ‘Extended Stay’ in my title. My views are going up. Okay, still no bookings.” But I would go in these Facebook groups and just put, “Hey guys, I have this property in San Antonio. If anyone needs a mid-term rental or have connections, just let me know.”
I did that and someone was interested in the booking. Here was the worst thing. My calendar was open for one month. Guys, one whole month. And then I got a two-day booking. Right after that, someone is interested for a whole month. And I’m like, “Really?”

Rob:
Yeah. It doesn’t work exactly like that. When you’re doing the short-term rental, mid-term rental hybrid. It is one of those things where it’s best to focus on the mid-term rental strategy first and then fill your spaces with short-term rental. That’s the ideal scenario.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t always work that way. And the thing that hurts with mid-term rentals the most is it’s an amazing business niche within this market, but the vacancy does hurt.

Keleisha:
Oh, yeah.

Rob:
The vacancy is a lot bigger than it typically is with a short-term rental.

Keleisha:
I’m like, “Mm-mm.” And I think that was a tough part, and I was so close to canceling that Airbnb guest. But I was like, “Nope, I’ve worked too hard for a Superhost. I’m not even going to cancel unless the guest is sure that they’re going to book for 30 days.”
So we did more research to verify a few things like, “How soon are you looking to move? Does this budget work for you? Do you have X? Do you have a pet?” All these things. We verified all of this. We had back and forth conversation. But guess what? The guests stopped responding. So they were never interested again. So I was so happy I didn’t go and cancel that one booking that I had.

Rob:
Yeah. I think that’s the philosophy I really ingrain in everybody is to never cancel a booking ever, no matter what. I’ve had to cancel bookings because I had a glamping tent that got blown away by a monsoon. But other than that, there’s no reason to do it. Because people really do create their vacations around your Airbnb, and if you cancel on them, it could be a bummer on their vacation.
So what we try to do is we have multiple units nearby, and so if we get a mid-term rental booking, we will just reach out and say, “Hey, we’re going to move you to this unit. It’s a little different.” And then if they get mad about it, we’ll give them a little discount.

Henry:
So you’re saying the only time you’ve ever canceled on anybody is because their actual property blew away? Where they were going to sleep was no longer there?

Rob:
That is correct. And Airbnb has a very strict policy. They’re like, “You can never cancel.” And then I was like, “Yeah. My tent is literally not there.” And then they’re like, “Can you send photos?” And I was like, “Do you want me to send you a photo of air? It’s not there. It’s gone. Listen to me.”

Keleisha:
That’s hilarious. Oh, my gosh.

Rob:
Well, listen, Keleisha, I think it’s awesome that you’re trying… You’re the pivot queen, and I know that you’re figuring things out. And this is actually one of my favorite episodes in that there are a lot of things that you’re still figuring it out. A lot of people come onto this and it’s hard to really understand. But I think most people are in your position right now where… I’m still figuring stuff out too. I try different things all the time.
I’m throwing darts at the wall and I’m trying new business models and I say, “Hey, maybe this isn’t my thing, but at least I tried it and at least it reinforces that I should really stick to the things that I’m really good at and the things that I’m passionate about.” So a lot of lessons to be taken out of today’s episode. But in general, what actions do you think you consistently take that have made the biggest difference in your investing?

Keleisha:
One of them is understanding how to underwrite deals. So when I got into real estate, I always heard Brendan talk about, “Analyze a deal every day.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’m doing that. I’m not getting it. Because I don’t know what the rehab is, I don’t know what closing costs are. I don’t know all those stuff.” And it was very discouraging.
And I think until one day I was just analyzing a deal every day, and that’s when the light bulb went off and I was like, “Oh, my God, I get it.” He said, analyze a deal every day. So that way, you understand what numbers affect what. What that mean is you will know, “Okay, if I want to increase my cash flow, do I need to increase my income or do I need to reduce my expenses? If I want to increase my cash-on-cash return, do I need to reduce my total cash invested or do I need to also reduce my expenses?”
So the point of analyzing the deal every day is to understand what numbers affect what, so then you can master napkin underwriting. Another thing that I do for my short-term rentals, I would pretend as if I’m a guest, because I always had guests tell me, “Oh, my God, I love your place and this is what I experienced.” So I’m like, “I want to experience it myself.”
So I would book any of my properties. I don’t tell cleaners, I don’t tell anyone. And I pretend as if I’m the guest. And when I get to the house, I follow the check-in instructions. Everything that a check-in instruction tell me to do, I’ll do that. The first thing you do when you go to a hotel or Airbnb, you guys walk around because you want to see what this house has to offer. I do the same thing.
I walk in, I want to know what it smell like, I want to know what feeling I get. And then I’m seeing all these switches, for example, and I’m like, “Oh, I wonder where this switch goes.” And I’m just testing it all out. And in doing those things, I know that, “Okay, I need to label my switches.”
I get to the living room, I see two remotes. I don’t know which remote belongs to the TV. I was like, “Ooh, I need to label the remotes to say living room remote.” Those simple things, when you put yourself in the guest’s shoe, it sets you apart and you know what you need to fix without even depending on your team as much because you’re going to see things that your team won’t.

Rob:
Smart. It’s always a very gratifying and disappointing experience because you realize all the little things that get moved around and everything over the course of a few months or six months, and I think that’s a really important lesson to go and walk your properties. I know it’s a novel concept and it’s hard to do, especially at scale.
But it is something that can be a little eye-opening and can really be pivotal to the optimization of your portfolio. Tell us where you’re at today. Are you feeling gratified about the steps and the risks that you’ve taken? How are things with your mom? Have you been sending her money and showing your success? How’s that all been going?

Keleisha:
So it has been going really well. I’m very grateful for it. But one of the biggest thing that I’m learning is that I’m planting the seeds. What this mean is everyone thinks that when you get into real estate, you’re going to be making a ton of money when you get in. No, you are not. You guys will hear Rob mention at the beginning that I’m making $5,000 net. Yes, but that’s not going in my pocket. It’s either going into reserves or it’s using to pay off debt that I used to get in to all these mentorships and courses and all those things.
You’re going to be broke, honestly. You’re going to be broke. You’re going to feel like giving up. I think I’m going through one of the toughest time now in my career. And what’s pushing me through is that I keep looking back to be like, “You’ve come this far, you can’t give up now. It’s just a phase. Just go through it.” And each time I’m just figuring it out.
And I think as well, it’s just how can I get ready for the next season of my life. I’m not the type of person to have a two-year goal or a three-year goal. I have 90-day goals. When that 90 days come, I create a whole new goal. So right now, for me, I just want to finish the year strong where my properties are cash flowing and I’m able to pay off all my lenders.

Henry:
Okay, awesome. So we understand that you recently had a full circle moment with that same podcast guest who showed you that this could be possible for you. So can you tell us a little bit about that?

Keleisha:
Yes. When I listened to Diego’s episode in 2019, we were going back and forth. And in 2023, who would’ve thought? In August of 2023, I got a message from Diego. When I saw his DM popped up, I screamed. You guys scream over celebrities. BiggerPockets people are like my celebrities. I get starstruck. And when Diego messaged me and invited me to speak to his Mastermind about capital raising, I was like, “No way.”
I sent him a voice memo, I started screaming. I’m like, “Dude, you’re the person who got me to my first investment property because you shared your story.” 2019, I never thought that would’ve happened. A girl from Jamaica, I’m cleaning tables, and you hear about real estate and wealth, you’re like, “Oh, you need a family. It’s going to take 10 years, 20 years.”
And just to see, even after quitting my job last year and seeing how much I’ve accomplished in a year, it’s mind-blowing. It just goes to show that anything can happen. It’s like with you guys as well. When we met at BPCON, I saw you guys. I’m like, “Oh, my gosh.”

Rob:
That’s how I get when I meet Henry too.

Keleisha:
I was like, “Oh, my gosh.” And it’s just showing that so much things can change when you start putting yourself in the right rooms, you start putting yourself out there and telling people what you’re doing and sharing your story and your journey. It’s like the universe starts sending things your way that you never thought would happen.

Rob:
I think that’s what real estate is all about, taking small steps. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. And I think you’re right. I think it’s really, really crazy to see what you can accomplish in a year. I think there’s a phrase that’s like, “We overestimate…” Hold on, hold on. Maybe you know it, Henry. “We overestimate what we can do in a day, but we underestimate what we can do in a year.” Does that sound about right?

Henry:
Yeah.

Rob:
And I think that’s true. And we get so caught up in this daily grind of working, and we’re in meetings all day and there’s never real progress day to day. And you look back and you’re like, “Whoa, what I’ve done in the last year, two years, three years, is a really life-changing thing and it’s the thing that I wanted more than anything else in this world when I started.”
And I think you’re the perfect encapsulation of that idea. So thank you so much for bringing your story, and I think a lot of people are going to be inspired by it. I know I am. Can you tell us a little bit more about where people can learn about you online and connect with you if they want to reach out?

Keleisha:
Yes. And I also wanted to say I always had this vision in my head when I started listening to the podcast. I’m like, “One day I’m going to be on this podcast.” I had even an image in my head of what I’ll be wearing. “I’ll be wearing a black shirt.” But I’m not wearing a black shirt today.
But I’m grateful for just being here and sharing my story. And you guys can find me on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn @keleishacarter. So everything, all social media platform, my website, my YouTube channel, it is all my full name, Keleisha Carter.

Rob:
And how do you spell Keleisha, just for everyone at home?

Keleisha:
K-E-L-E-I-S-H-A. And last name, C-A-R-T-E-R.

Henry:
So first of all, I want to congratulate you. I want to congratulate you on-

Keleisha:
Thank you.

Henry:
… quitting your job and finding your success in real estate. You’re netting 5K a month with your current portfolio. That’s amazing. And it takes a lot of hard work.

Rob:
Amazing.

Keleisha:
Thank you.

Henry:
I want to say that I am proud of you for the leaps of faith and risks you were willing to take to better you and your family’s lives. And I think that that’s commendable. And I also want to say I think there’s a lot of power in having those visions. It’s funny, I also had a vision of being on the BiggerPockets Podcast. I’ve told the story before, but I have. And I still, to this day, have a vision board on my phone. And one of the tiles is a BiggerPockets Podcast tile because I wanted to be a guest on the BiggerPockets Podcast.
And when I started, when I actually got word that I was going to be a guest, I had listened to tons of episodes, and then I had stopped listening to episodes. And so I was like, “I need to get a refresher on how this goes.” And so I started to listen to episodes again before I was going to get recorded. The very first episode I started to listen to again, before I was going to be on the show was Diego’s episode. And that’s where I first got-

Rob:
Wow.

Keleisha:
Wow.

Rob:
Really?

Henry:
Yeah, 100% absolutely true.

Rob:
That’s amazing. Well, for anybody that wants to go and listen to that episode with Diego Corzo, it’s episode 352. And if you’ve got a story just like Keleisha’s or you’re working through your own thing and you think you have something to share with the BiggerPockets community, you can go and fill out a form over on biggerpockets.com/guest, if you want to share your story with our team. And then maybe you’ll be selected to come and be an inspiration for everybody that listens to our podcast. Henry, if people want to find you online, where can they go?

Henry:
Best place is Instagram. I’m @thehenrywashington on Instagram, or you can check out my website. It’s www.seeyouattheclosingtable.com.

Rob:
Cool. You can always find me over on Instagram or YouTube. I can’t even plug my own stuff. You can find me on YouTube or Instagram @robuilt, R-O-B-U-I-L-T. I did spell that right, didn’t I? Don’t be laughing at me.

Henry:
You nailed it that time. Congratulations.

Rob:
Okay, good. I nailed it. I can do this. Look, when David’s gone, there’s a lot of pressure to perform. But we’re grateful to everyone at BiggerPockets and for all you guys listening. If you want to leave us a five-star review, head on over to the Apple Podcast platform or wherever you listen to your podcasts, and tell us what you thought about today’s episode.
But other than that, thanks everybody for listening, and we will catch you on the next episode of BiggerPockets. Welcome to the BiggerPockets. Oh, no. No, no. Wait. That does not count. Don’t take this away from me. Welcome to the…

Ben Harburg of MSA Capital says more effort is needed to restore confidence in China and thinks the fears in China’s property market are excessive.

One of the noteworthy trends in the latter half of the 20th century is the gradual recognition that we, as human beings, bear the responsibility of stewardship for our planet. This realization places a significant responsibility on all individuals, particularly those who wield influence.

One of the ways in which you can have a huge positive impact on the future is to be one of the innovators who can take what’s technologically possible and make it commercially viable.

Another noteworthy point is that sustainability is the area in which governments are arguably offering the most funding for innovation. Fundraising is one of the big challenges for early-stage projects, so being able to rely on alternative funding sources could make a big difference for small teams and projects.

That’s why in this article we cover 5 promising clean technology areas in which we believe there are opportunities for innovative startup projects.

1. Renewable Energy Platforms:

Renewable energy, particularly solar and wind solutions, is a cornerstone of clean technology. The global shift towards sustainable energy sources creates a compelling opportunity for startups to contribute to this green revolution.

А good example in this niche is SunPower, a company excelling in solar energy solutions. Its success stems from addressing the increasing demand for clean energy alternatives.

With governments worldwide investing in renewable initiatives and consumers increasingly favoring eco-friendly choices, startups entering the renewable energy space are met with a growing and supportive market. At the same time, making clean energy technologies commercially viable without governmental help is a huge challenge, which means that starting a business in this niche might be easier than making it self-sustaining.

2. Smart Grid Technologies:

Efficient energy distribution is pivotal for a sustainable future, and smart grid technologies offer a pathway to optimize energy management. Startups in this niche leverage data analytics and advanced sensors to enhance the efficiency of energy delivery. GridPoint is an exemplar in this space, providing intelligent energy management solutions.

The imperative for organizations to reduce their carbon footprint and enhance energy efficiency positions smart grid startups as key players in the evolving landscape. Early-stage ventures have the opportunity to pioneer cost-effective and scalable solutions that contribute to a more intelligent and sustainable energy infrastructure.

3. Energy Storage Innovations:

The rise of renewable energy sources underscores the critical need for advancements in energy storage. The problem is that most sustainable energy generation technologies are dependent on outside factors (most commonly weather). This means that at certain times they generate more energy than needed, and in certain – less. Adequate energy storage is crucial to link painlessly the highly varying energy supply and demand.

Tesla’s Powerwall – a home battery storage system, is a good example of the impact that energy storage innovations can have.

As the demand for renewable energy rises, startups focusing on efficient and cost-effective energy storage would be some of the best-positioned organizations to contribute to the wider adoption of clean energy.

4. Waste-to-Energy Conversion:

Transforming waste into a valuable energy resource is both environmentally crucial and economically viable. Startups delving into waste-to-energy conversion address two pressing issues simultaneously—waste management and sustainable energy production.

The immense volume of organic waste globally presents an ample opportunity for startups to pioneer scalable and efficient waste-to-energy solutions, aligning with the increasing emphasis on circular economy practices.

5. Eco-Friendly Transportation:

The transportation sector is a significant contributor to carbon emissions, presenting a substantial opportunity for startups focusing on eco-friendly alternatives. Companies like BYD and of course Tesla, exemplify success in this niche.

Of course, manufacturing vehicles is extremely capital-intensive which makes the field a hard one for brand new projects to enter. That said, the electric vehicle ecosystem has a lot of needs that could theoretically be satisfied by innovative early-stage projects. For example, fleet management solutions, last-mile delivery solutions, educational platforms, and charging infrastructure software are all software solutions. Hence, they have a much lower barrier to entry.

Ashley:
This is Real Estate Rookie Episode 342. My name is Ashley Kehr, and I am here with my co-host Tony J. Robinson.

Tony:
And welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast where every week, twice a week, we’re bringing you the inspiration, motivation, and stories you need to hear to kickstart your investing journey. And today we’re switching it up just a little bit. You guys don’t get a bunch of questions from the Rookie audience today, but you get to hear from me from my experience. And Ashley’s going to interview me today to talk all about private money lending.

Ashley:
Yeah, we’re going to do a deep dive into everything and anything you need to know about being a private moneylender or getting money from a private moneylender. We’re going to talk about putting together the contract, the amortization schedule, what kind of document you need to file with the county clerk to make it official. We’re going to go through those documents that you need. We’ll give a little tax advice as to things you should consider for your taxes.
And then Tony also tells us how much money he had to pay out of pocket to a private moneylender when his flip didn’t sell. So it’s a jaw dropping amount of money, Tony, so make sure you listen for that. And I think it’s a great example as to the kind of character and trait that you should look for when you are investing with somebody too. And we definitely talk about scenarios where you can protect yourself and also what kind of standards you should have for the person you’re investing with and also as the private moneylender.

Tony:
So today we’re going to dive into one of my secret weapons in my real estate business, and that is private money, raising private money from other people, using that money to fund your deals. It’s been an absolute game changer for my ability to transact on deals and I’m able to scale at a rate that I wouldn’t have been able to if I was just using my own capital. So today we’re going to talk a little bit about what a private moneylender is, how to set those relationships up, how to navigate the water to private money lending, and hopefully give you a roadmap for doing this in your own business as well.

Ashley:
Tony has a lot more experience with private moneylenders, so we’re going to be focused mostly on Tony’s story today to kind of guide you guys and give you an all-inclusive kind of guidebook as to what private money is and how to actually get a private moneylender. So I’m going to be leading the questions today, Tony will be my lovely guest on the show.
First off, I want to start with who was your first private moneylender? When did you take that leap? Because you have talked about your first properties a lot. You went to that bank in Louisiana, they funded the purchase price, the rehab. What kind of made that transition from using bank financing to private money?

Tony:
Yeah, that’s a great question, Ashley. Maybe we should even start just with what the differences are between traditional bank financing, hard money loans, and then private money. Traditional bank financing is what most people think of when they think of going to get a loan. You’re going to your local credit union, your local regional bank, your big national bank, and you are applying for a mortgage with that institution. So that’s traditional banking.
And then you have hard moneylenders which focus more so on the real estate investor, and that’s where a lot of people who are doing the fix and flips or BRRRs are going with the hard moneylender. Hard moneylenders are typically also institutions, significantly smaller than some of the big banks that you’re going to be working with. But typically, these are businesses, right? These are people who make a living, right? These are businesses who generate revenue and profits by lending money out to investors. And hard money’s a good in-between because you’re going to be able to get debt on properties you definitely wouldn’t be able to get a loan on from Bank of America, but it’s typically a little bit more expensive as well. You’re going to pay a higher interest rate, you’re going to pay more fees. And typically hard moneylenders are a bit more rigid in what they want from a borrower and from a property, but it’s a good stepping stone, right? But as a rookie, honestly, sometimes hard moneylenders are tough to get into. They’re going to want more capital down, higher interest rates, and things of that nature.
And then the third type is the private moneylender, and to me this is like the holy grail of getting your deals funded because there’s significantly more flexibility when you’re working with the private moneylender. Typically, when we say private money, we’re talking about an individual or maybe one or two people that are working together. But the benefit of going with private money versus hard money is you get to really kind of have a say in what those terms look like. So how much down payment, if any, the interest rate, the term, all of that is negotiable when you’re talking with a person as opposed to doing it with a business. So at a high level, that’s kind of the differences there.
Ash, I’ve never used hard money. Have you used hard money for any of your projects before?

Ashley:
Yeah, I’ve used one hard moneylender, and I actually did a line of credit with them where I was able to get up to I think it was $1.5 million line of credit. So I was already basically approved to borrow that amount from them. I still had to bring each property to them. They would vet the property and then loan me the money, and it was the max $1.5 million. I couldn’t have more money out than that with them. So I actually did it for three properties, and honestly it was a nightmare. I hated it compared to private money or even bank financing.

Tony:
Was that the hard moneylender that you had recommended to me, the one that … I think I remember this, and yeah, if I recall the person, I remember some headaches with that one. But to go back to answer your other question, Ash, about what caused the transition. As we were building out the business, we realized that we needed to go after properties that needed some work and the ability to get turnkey deals, it was drying up a little bit. We couldn’t find as many good deals just sitting on the MLS that were turnkey, ready to go. So we were kind of forced into rehabbing properties.
So once we made that decision to start going down that route, I definitely didn’t want to go the hard money routes. I said, “Hey, let me tap into my network and see if I can find some folks that might be willing to fund these deals for us.” And luckily, I already had some folks that I knew that were successfully leveraging private money. So you ask a few questions, kind of understand how to set things up. And I had a really, really good escrow officer that I work with here in Southern California, and she honestly educated me quite a bit on the process as well. So it was really just out of necessity that we needed to go down the route for private money.

Ashley:
Yeah. For me starting with private money, it was working for another investor and I managed a lot of his companies. And one of the companies was kind of at a stalemate where it wasn’t really doing anything, and it was collecting interest from loans on vehicles. So this company had created with another business partner actually almost like a loan shark on vehicles. So if you couldn’t get a loan on your car, you could come to them and they would charge you 15 to 20% interest on your car loan and you would pay them. And there was no activity anymore. They had maybe four loans that were still being paid over the amortization, and there was a line of credit with this company.
So I approached him and said, “What if I paid you more interest then your line of credit and I this money to purchase this property?” And so that was my first private moneylender and still one of my private moneylenders today. But very, very casual as in the agreement of that private money. As far as the documentation and stuff like that, there was no actual lien on the property. It was just we had a note payable and a contract between the two of us for that. And that was just because of the trust we have built up. If I was to do it with anybody else, we would do it the property way that Tony is going to explain today, the proper way to do it and not this way.
So Tony, let’s start off with what are some of the documentation that you should actually use when you’re putting together private money?

Tony:
Also, you said something important Ashley I just want to circle back to, but the trust piece. And I definitely do think that that plays a role in how this relationship looks. If you’re lending from someone that you’ve worked with a dozen times, maybe you don’t need to go through all the hoops that I’m going to talk through today. We have a mutual friend Cam and Lexi who flip out in the Midwest, and I know that they typically, their step is a little bit different than mine, and I think a little bit more lax. Amy Maggiore, who’s been on a few episodes of the Real Estate Podcast, I think it was like 636 was her first episode, but if you go back and listen to Amy’s episode, I’ve spoken with her and a lot of times she’ll take the money directly from the private moneylender. So everyone kind of does it differently. So as long as you’re not breaking laws in your state, don’t feel like you have to do it my way. My way is just one approach. It’s worked well for me, that helps me sleep better at night with the way that I have it structured.
But one other thing that makes me think about too Ash is that the trust thing is important because the private money relationship is a partnership. It is a form of a real estate partnership, which if you haven’t picked up the Real Estate Partnerships book, hit over to biggerpockets.com/partnerships. And we actually do have a chapter in the book where we break down the differences between a private money partnership and an equity partnership. So if you want to understand what more of those nuances are, you can jump into the book. We just know there are differences.
But anyway, going back to your question Ass, Ash, about … Sorry, did I just call you [inaudible 00:10:14]?

Ashley:
If you did, I didn’t notice.

Tony:
You guys can cut that or just leave it in.

Ashley:
Or leave it.

Tony:
Yeah, and just bleep it out. But going back to your question, Ash, so there’s I guess really three main documents that I create whenever I’m entering into a private money partnership. We have the promissory notes, we have the deed of trust, and then we have the amortization schedule. And I’ll break down each of those in a little bit more detail.
So first is the promissory note. This is basically the outline of what this loan looks like. So myself and the private moneylender are entering into an agreement about the amount of money they’re going to give me. How long are they going to lend that money out? What’s the term of that note? What is it going to cost me to borrow that money, so what’s the interest rate? What happens if I need to extend? What happens if I’m … Whatever rules you want to put into your note with that person, that’s what goes into the promissory note.
So for us, like I said, typically we’ll have the actual loan amount, so someone might loan us 350,000 bucks, so that’s the note amount. Then we’ll have the actual terms. So how long can I hold this money from this person? How long are they loaning it out to me? We typically set our terms to be about 12 months, not about, to be exactly 12 months. And then we usually have an option to extend, and if we have to extend, there are some incentives for the lender. We always have the interest rate, and that’s an annual interest rate. So say that someone lends us … I’ll use round numbers here. Say that someone lends us $120,000 and they’re doing that at a 10% interest rate. That means over the course of an entire 12 months, they’re going to get back 10% or 12,000 bucks, which would be 1,000 bucks per month in interest that they’re accruing. So that’s how we set up our notes is that it’s an annual interest rate that they’re getting.
And then we also have the terms of repayment. So we typically set our notes up so that we’re not making any monthly payments during the life of the loan. We pay the private moneylender back at the end of the project, that’s either when we sell or refinance the property. But during the actual rehab itself, we’re not making any payments. And again, that’s something that we’re able to negotiate with the private moneylenders. If it was a hard moneylender, it might be different, but private moneylenders, we have that flexibility.
And then we also talk about the … I guess I’ll get into this later with the amortization schedule, but it’s also like how is this loan being amortized or how is this loan being structured from a principal versus interest? Our loans are always … we’re not paying down any of the principal balance during the life of the loan, so that interest is just accruing. So if someone gives us money, their principal balance remains the same, and then we’re just adding interest on top of that every single month. So that’s kind of how we set it up from the note perspective.

Ashley:
Yeah. So with the note, is this something your attorney is drawing up? And what is your recommendation for should you get a sample from somebody else? Should it be specific to your state, the private moneylender’s state, the state the property is in, or does it not matter?

Tony:
Good question. So I had my attorney draft up the note for me. Typically, she’s the one that does it. Actually on a refinance we just did, my escrow company did it for me. So I’d say go to an attorney in the tenure 10-year state or maybe in the state where the property’s at. That probably maybe makes more sense. I don’t know. I don’t know which one is more important, either your residence or the property’s residence. But my attorney is the one that usually drafts it up for me, and I actually have just a template that’s like fill in the blank. So every time I have a new deal, instead of me going back to my attorney, I’m just filling in the specifics of that deal. What’s the amount, what’s the term, what’s the interest rate? That’s typically all the information I need to update. And then that person’s name. So the attorney’s the one that usually drafts it for me.

Ashley:
And what about your name? Are you putting your personal name? Are you putting the LLC of the property? Do you have another company that’s going on the document?

Tony:
Yeah, so we usually put the name of the LLC on the note and usually because it’s our LLC that owns the property as well. So yeah, but we put our LLC on the note. I’ve only had one instance where a lender asked for a personal guarantee where if for whatever reason the entity itself wasn’t able to pay the loan, that I would then become personally liable. But outside of that, typically it’s just our LLCs that are signing for the property.

Ashley:
So you want to move into that amortization piece as to how you’re defining the terms of it. Are you making monthly payments? Are you paying at the end? Is it interest only? What are some of the options you can do as far as that repayment term and how are you putting that into the contract?

Tony:
So I’ll go into the amortization schedule and I’ll finish off with the deed afterwards because the deed kind of ties it all together. But we always create an amortization schedule. So if you’ve ever purchased a home, in your loan, that big loan packet they made you sign, somewhere in that loan packet is an amortization schedule. And that schedule basically says over the term of your loans, say you typically have a 30-year fixed mortgage, you’re going to see monthly payments stretch out over 30 years. And then every single one of those lines for every single month will show the payment amount that you’re making and then of that payment amount, what amount is going towards your principal pay down and what amount is going towards your interest payments. And you guys can just Google like amortization schedule, you’ll see an example of this. But with a usual mortgage, with a traditional mortgage, when you make a payment, that payment every month again goes towards both your principal and a portion goes towards your interest.
When we set up our private money deals, these are typically interest only. So it means we’re not making any payments that go towards principal reduction. So at the end of the term, the 12-month term, we’re paying back the entire initial principle that someone gave us, plus the interest that’s accrued. So it works out well for us because we don’t have to make any payments during the actual loan, but it also works out for the private moneylender because their interest is based off of that principal balance position isn’t getting smaller. So they’re getting a nice big payday back at the end, but that’s typically how we set it up.

Ashley:
Okay. So then the deed of trust, explain why that’s important and how you include this as part of the documentation.

Tony:
Sorry, just actually one other thing on the amortization schedule. I would recommend that everyone include that when they’re talking with their private moneylenders, just for sake of clarity, because it’s very clear both in the notes, but then people can also see it visually in the amortization schedule that they’re not getting any payments during the life of the loan and they can see how much interest is accruing on a monthly basis. So they know, “Hey, if this project goes four months, here’s the interest payment that I’m getting back in addition to my principal. If it goes eight months, here’s the interest payment that I’m getting back in addition to my principal.” So it really lays it out clearly upfront for the private moneylender before they make a commitment to investing with you. It just kind of reduces any ambiguity there.

Ashley:
I do have a couple recommendations. So you mentioned just Googling the amortization. Bankrate.com has a very user-friendly one to generate it, just put in $100,000, 5% amortized over 10 years, and just see what it spits out. There’s also an app, Easy Calculators, which also has the amortization in there for a loan too, or all different types of loan products. You can play with the numbers, even for seller financing, to try to put an offer together. Those are some great resources there.

Tony:
And I’d take the easy route. I just made a simple Excel Google sheet template, so every time now I just go in, I update the loan amount, the interest rate, when it starts, and I’m just able to drop that into the note every time.

Ashley:
So everybody always says to me, “Lady in the streets, but a freak in the spreadsheets,” and here’s Tony, “Here’s a spreadsheet I created.”

Tony:
But it worked out really well for us, right?

Ashley:
Yeah, yeah.

Tony:
So then the third document is the deed of trust. And if you guys go back and listen to Pace’s episode, he does a really good job of breaking down the difference between the deed, the title, the mortgage, these are all separate things. So when we have a private money relationship, we are on title for the property. My LLC, like Tony Robinson’s home flipping LLC, is listed as the owner of that property. We’re then listed as a person that’s on the note, so we owe the Jane Doe $350,000. But then when you look up the county records, even though we are listed as the owner, the person who has the note has a lien against the property. So their private money note is shown as a lien against the property in the same way a traditional mortgage is listed as a lien against your primary residence.
And the way that that happens is through the deed of trust, and it has a different name in every state. In California, it’s called the deed of trust. I think the general name is a mortgage security document. So every state has some sort of mortgage security document. In California, it’s called a deed of trust. So that deed of trust basically takes the promissory note, the debt that that person is giving us, and it ties it to the property. It ties it to the property. And what happens is that if for whatever reason, some worst case scenario, say that we are unable to complete the rehab or we’re unable to sell the property, we’re unable to refinance, or we’re unable to fulfill our duties to repay that promissory note, that deed of trust then gives the private moneylender the right to foreclose on the property, take it from us, obtain ownership, and then they can go out and fix it themselves, sell it, do whatever they want with it. But the deed of trust is that document that really solidifies everything and gives the private moneylender protection in case we ever stop making payments.

Ashley:
Okay. So now you have disclosed all of this, you’ve presented it to your private moneylender. Before you’re putting these documents together, to kind of backtrack, are you agreeing on these terms before you actually put the documents together? Or is this part of your presentation as to, “Here’s the terms I’m offering,” and you are giving them everything right there? Or is negotiating taking place beforehand?

Tony:
Great question, Ashley, and it is usually the latter where we’ve already kind of set up the terms that we feel will make sense for this deal. And honestly, our terms are pretty much the same always. The only thing that will change is the interest rate kind of given where interest rates rather than general, right? When the market was at a 3% interest rate, I think we’re offering folks 10. Now that we’re at 7, 8%, right, we’re offering a little bit more than that, but we typically present to people, “Hey, here’s the amount that we’re looking to raise, here’s the interest rate that we’re offering, and here are the terms of the deal. And if this is something that you’re interested in, reach back out and let us know.”
And what I’ll usually do is when I send out the information, I’ll send basic details of the property itself, and I’ll always include a short Loom video of me walking through both the promissory note and the deed of trust so that way people who maybe haven’t been private moneylenders before have an understanding of what the process looks like. So a lot of the breakdown I just gave right now, I have that in a Loom video. So I’ll send out the details of the flip of the rehab that we’re looking to get funded along with that Loom video. And then I’ll say, “Hey, if you’re interested, reach back out to me and my team.”

Ashley:
As far as the contract, so when the lender agrees already to sign, who do you recommend they put the name of the contract in? So we talked for you, you’re putting it into your company name, but what about for the lender? What is your recommendation? Should someone put it in their personal name? Should they have their own LLC?

Tony:
That’s a good question. No one’s ever actually asked that. And I’d say all of our lenders are doing this in their personal names. So all the notes are their personal names. When you look up on the county records who has the lien, it’s their personal name. So yeah, everyone’s sending it through their personal name. And again, I think that’s because most of the folks that I work with, these aren’t professional private moneylenders that do this a ton. So I don’t know, maybe that’d be a good question for Amanda Hahn or some of our legal folks to see if there’s an incentive from a tax perspective to run it through an LLC as opposed to their personal name. It could possibly be because interest collected I think is considered as active income, so if you’re running that through an LLC instead that’s taxed as an S corp, you might get some favorable benefits. But again, we probably need to pull Amanda Hahn on to get some insight there.

Ashley:
And one other thing we need to talk about too is if you are paying somebody interest, especially if you’re doing it out of your LLC, is that sending them a 1099-INT at the end of the year so it’s reported as to how much interest you paid them, and then it has to be claimed on the lender’s taxes too that they received this income of the interest too. So take into account that you will have to most likely pay somebody to do this. Everybody always forgets to factor into their numbers the bookkeeping, the cost of the LLC, the cost of the tax return.
And also if you’re using private money, we’ll have to file the 1099s and you can do them online, they’re pretty fairly easy to use. But there’s also software that you can pay to do it or you can have your accountant or CPA do that for you too. But something to really think about is make sure that you are filing those when you are using private money and sending them to … If you are doing it in your personal name, I don’t think you have to issue a 1099 though.

Tony:
I did ask my CPA and she said that we didn’t have to and that it was more so up to the lenders, scout’s honor, to report that on their personal tax return. So we haven’t issued any 1099s in our business.
But it does bring up an important point actually about the entity piece. So we have a separate entity. I guess let me take a step back. So the tax advice that I’ve been given is that you always want to separate your rental income from your active income. So rental income, short-term rentals, long-term rentals, all that is rental income. And then things like flipping, wholesaling, that’s all active income. So we have one entity for all of our rentals, and then we have a separate entity for our active income, so our flips. I don’t want to be wholesale as much anymore, only did that a few times. Our events, our coaching program, our media stuff, all that’s in one entity. And again, the reason why was because apparently you don’t want to mix your active income and your passive income into one entity because some of those benefits of the passive investing go away if they’re co-mingled in the same entity with your active income. So from the borrower side, that’s typically how we set it up as well.

Ashley:
Okay. So one of the other questions I have is regarding insurance. So are you putting these private moneylenders as a mortgagee on your insurance policy you would do when you have a mortgage on the property?

Tony:
We are not. Yeah, so we just factor in the cost of the insurance policy. We usually buy a year upfront and we’ll just make sure that that’s done during escrow as well. So the homes are always insured, but some lenders, like real lenders, like actual institutions-

Ashley:
Banks, yeah.

Tony:
-They’re going to want to make sure … Right, they’re going to want to make sure that you have that they have proof of insurance and if they don’t, they’re going to put the lender approved insurance, they’re going to force that onto your property. Again, that’s the benefit of going with the private moneylender is that they’re just more so focused on the return. They’re trusting us to make sure that the asset is insured. And that’s typically how we set it up.

Ashley:
Yeah. And part of the mortgagee side of it too is being listed as the mortgagee to make sure that the bank gets paid out first so that the check actually goes to that and not you too. So I was just curious if any of your private moneylenders had that requirement at all or asked for that, but I think it’s something a lot of people probably don’t even think of or they have that trust that … Is there anything in your contract that states if the property were to burn down or there was the loss of the property, that the insurance proceeds would go to the private moneylender or a portion of it would, or it’s a complete loss, they don’t get anything? If you will rebuild and they have to keep their money in the deal until you rebuild? Anything like that? I’m thinking all this off the top of my head because I’ve never thought about it either that way.

Tony:
Yeah, no, yeah, it’s a good question. So we don’t have anything in the promissory note specifically that dictates that, but here’s the thing that I always tell all of our private moneylenders, it’s like all it takes is one angry private moneylender to go on their Instagram, go on their TikTok, go on their Facebook, in the Facebook groups, wherever and say, “I lent money to Tony J Robinson, and it was the worst experience ever.” And now our ability to raise capital for all of our future deals is significantly impacted. So I’ve always shared with every person that we’ve done a deal with what’s most important to me first is my reputation, and at the end of the day, I’m always going to do whatever I need to do to make our private moneylenders whole.
So we had an episode earlier this year where I shared one of our flips where market shifted, we have a buyer that backed out. By the time we found that next buyer, things just weren’t working out how we wanted them to. We ended up having to refinance the property and it was a flip where we were supposed to make six figures on the actual flip and it ended up turning into a refinance where I had to put in over $200,000 to make sure that we pay back our private moneylender on time. So I’m always willing to take the hit myself personally to make sure that we’re mixing the private moneylenders whole so that way I can continue to raise money from people down the road.

Ashley:
Well, what if everyone isn’t as ethical as you Tony? If you are lending the money, would you suggest somebody ask that question as to what happens if this happens? The place burns down, or even in your situation, maybe let’s go into that. How are some ways that you can protect yourself as a private moneylender? So in your contract, what are some things in place where people who are lending you money feel safe and secure?

Tony:
First thing I’ll say is that I think that’s why a big piece of a successful private money relationship is the preexisting relationship where it’s like you’ve met this person a couple times. You’ve maybe seen some of their track record already. You’ve got a good sense of who they are as a person. If someone just walked up to you and you’ve only had one conversation at a meetup, maybe don’t give them $500,000 to go fund their very first flip. So I think have a little bit of not common sense, but have a little bit of, I don’t know, vetting this person and vetting that to make sure that this is someone that you want to get into bed with. But I think if a private moneylender really wants to protect themselves, just look at what a hard moneylender does because hard moneylenders do this as a true business and they’ve perfected the art of protecting themselves because that’s their first priority.
So hard moneylenders typically want down payments, right, they’re not going to let you fund the entire thing. Whereas for us, with our private moneylenders, that’s a requirement for us. We want to make sure that whoever we’re working with trusts us enough to fund the entire deal. Hard moneylenders typically charge higher fees or maybe don’t even work with new investors at all, right? If you’ve never done a flip, some hard moneylenders don’t even want to look at you, right because they’re like, “Hey, there’s too much risk inherent in that.” So I think if private moneylenders want to protect themselves a bit more, just go fill out an application for a hard moneylender and see what all those things are that they’re looking for and see what you can pull into your own private money relationship, and it’s a great way to steal from someone else.

Ashley:
Okay, let’s keep rolling with questions to be asked. And this one would be from somebody lending you money. What happens if I want my money back beforehand, so before you sell the flip or before you refinance?

Tony:
So it’s a question that’s probably one of the top two questions that come up. And so the first one is like, “Hey, what if I want my money back sooner?” Second question is, “What happens if you can’t sell this property for what you think?”
So on that first piece, like what happens if I want my money back sooner, the way we’ve set up our notes is that once it’s inside, you can’t touch it until the project’s done. And we communicate that very clearly upfront to say like, “Hey, this isn’t like a stock that you can just kind of trade in and trade out whenever it’s convenient for you. Don’t invest this money if you aren’t comfortable with the idea of it being locked up for at least 12 months. If you know you’re going to need this money back in four months, don’t do the deal. We’d rather have someone tell us no upfront, then get into the deal and down the road say, ‘Hey, we want to change things up.’” So we communicate that very clearly upfront that you can’t.
And then like I said, that second question that always pops up is, “Hey, what happens if you guys can’t execute your business plan?” And like I mentioned earlier, our goal is to always make our private moneylenders whole, and whatever means we need to do to make that happen, we’re willing and ready to do. So like I said, that last flip, we came out of pocket over 200,000 bucks to make sure we completed that refinance and paid that person back. And if we need to sell it for a loss, we’ll do that. Luckily, we haven’t had to do that yet, but whatever steps we need to take, that’s what we’re willing to do to make sure that those lenders get paid back.

Ashley:
And hopefully everybody that lends money to an investor is an investor like you where they’ll do everything to get paid back.

Tony:
Well, just real quick Ash because we also had … I wish I could remember what episode, maybe our producers can help us out. But we had, gosh, was it JP Desmond I think was the one that lost the money on those flips?

Ashley:
Wasn’t it like half a million or something? It was a lot.

Tony:
Yeah, it was a good chunk of cash that he had and his flip kind of fell apart, and he basically just refinanced or restructured that debt into a longer term. So I think he was paying them back over three years, even though the flip had already fallen apart. So there are always ways, again, assuming you’re working with someone of high character, that they really does want to make sure that they protect that relationship, there are always ways to try and make that person whole again. Ideally, best solution is you go into it, you knock it out, everything works perfectly, and everyone gets paid back on time and on schedule.

Ashley:
And that was Episode 279 if you want to hear that story. Okay. So now Tony, what happens if you can’t sell? You’ve kind of alluded through this throughout the episode. What are some maybe restructuring ideas somebody can put together or different extra strategies they could maybe present to the private moneylender?

Tony:
I guess I’ll give you two different scenarios. So I already gave you the first one where we basically just refinanced the property ourselves and came out of pocket a significant amount of cash to get that refinance done. But we had a second rehab where we didn’t want to complete the refi because rates had just gone up and the amount of cash we’re going to have to put down plus the increased interest rate, it just didn’t make sense for us. So we were able to negotiate with that private moneylender to extend his note for another year, give him a slightly higher interest rate. And even though the monthly payment was going to be higher than what it would’ve been if we refinanced, our overall profit at the end of the year would’ve been higher because we didn’t have this big cash outlay to complete the refinance while still giving us time to hopefully see what rates do over the next 12 months. So he was happy and willing to refinance because it meant that he’s still collecting that interest, and for him, that’s better than it just sitting in a bank doing nothing.
So that was the second option. It’s like if you approach that private moneylender and if they’re not in a rush to get those funds back today, then just give them that option and say, “Hey, let’s extend for another XYZ,” whatever period you want to pitch to them, see if they’re open to it, and then you just redraw the documents to make sure that everything’s lined up with those new terms of that deal.

Ashley:
Okay, Tony, this all sounds wonderful, but how do you find these people to give you your money?

Tony:
Great, great, great question. So there’s two different ways to go about it. Actually honestly, you should be doing all these things, right? So let me kind of break it down, right? I’ll talk the kind of in-person activities and the digital activities.
So from an in-person perspective, what I think every aspiring person that wants to raise capital should be doing is they need to build their network. And not in a self-motivating way, but just understanding that the more people that you know, the more people you are able to provide value to, the higher your chances, the higher your opportunities of finding the right person to fund your deals. So say that I’m a rookie starting from zero. The very first thing I would do is look at my local city, look at my local area, and try and find some of those real estate meetups that are happening in that area.
And I would go to as many of those meetups as I can for as often as I can, and not necessarily with the intention of pitching everyone right away to say, “Hey, will you be my private moneylender?” But just talking to folks and understanding what their motivations are, understanding why they’re looking at potentially … What motivated them to come to this meetup. And what you’re looking for are people who understand the value of investing in real estate, but don’t necessarily have the time, desire, or ability to do it themselves. That is your ideal person to be a private moneylender because it means they’ve got the capital, but maybe they don’t want the headache of managing a rehab. That’s just not what they want to do. They don’t really like the idea of tenants and shopping for deals and giving 10% to a property manager doesn’t make sense, so they’re still wanting to use real estate to give them those good returns, but they don’t want to do the work themselves. I think that’s the ideal person for you to work with.
And you can kind of pick up on those things based on the language that people use. If someone mentions that they have a stereotypical high-paying job, doctor, lawyer, I don’t know, engineer, software engineer, anything that’s super high six-figure salary, but they’re like, “Man, I work 60 hours a week and I barely have time for my wife and kids, but I really want to do this real estate thing.” Those are cues without them saying, “I’ve got a ton of capital,” that you can pick up on to say that. Or people that maybe have … For example, I have folks, some of our private moneylenders that invest using their 401ks and they’ll basically take a loan out against their 401k at a relatively low interest rate and then re-lend that money out to us where we’re paying them 5X what they’re paying on their 401k loan. That’s another cue to look for.
So I think the goal is to get out to these local meetups, network with people, understand what their motivations are, and then when you meet that person where goals might align, it’s a simple question of like … Sometimes I find deals and maybe this is a good fit for you, maybe it isn’t. But sometimes I find deals that I present to some folks that they’re able to fund. “Is that something that you might be interested in? If I find a decent deal, would you mind if I send it to you just to give it a look over? And if it’s not a good deal for you, no sweat, but maybe there’s a chance we can work together?” Super unabrasive, very disarming, but just float that idea. And they might say, “Yeah, sure, send it my way,” or they might say, “Ah, I don’t really think I want to do that.” No harm, no foul. So that would be my first step, Ashley, is going to some of those local meetups and building your network out that way.

Ashley:
I want to touch on one more thing is I feel like having a private moneylender relationship, it’s almost like a testing ground for partnerships. So maybe even before jumping into creating an LLC or a joint venture agreement with someone, maybe that’s actually your first kind of baby step is to where they are just lending you money on the deal and they’re just a debt partner instead of giving them any kind of equity or ownership in the deal, to kind of test just how that relationship goes with the person before you go ahead and build out a huge real estate portfolio with the person not knowing much about them.

Tony:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more Ashley. And honestly, two of our private moneylenders have transitioned to becoming equity partners for us, and the majority of our private moneylenders have done multiple deals with us. We’ve had a few that were one and dones like, “Hey, I lent you money, but now I went out and bought my own property.” But the majority we’ve done business with multiple times, and it is a really good way to kind of build that relationships with folks. And it’s really cool because if we’re in a private money relationship and you’re really good about letting us do what we’re supposed to be doing and you check in at the beginning of the deal, we check in with you at the end of the deal, and you’re just all thumbs up, that’s a good sign to me that you’ll probably be a good equity partner as well.
But say we do a private money relationship and you’re calling me every other week saying, “Hey, Tony, the floor, is it in yet? Hey, Tony, is the back-splash in? Hey Tony, the cabinet’s in? Hey Tony, what’s the paint color?” That’s you kind of stepping into my world of work and not necessarily the person that I want to partner with on an equity deal. So I think the private money relationship is a really good stepping stone to potential long-term equity relationships. Or it could just be, “Hey, this is going to be a good private money relationship. We’re both going to be happy. This person’s going to continue to work their high paying W2 job, and I’m going to continue to use their excess funds to give them a better return than what they get leaving it in the bank or put it in a CD or wherever. And it’s a mutually beneficial relationship for all of us.”

Ashley:
Well, Tony, thank you so much for the wealth of knowledge for everyone today. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed having you as a guest on the podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening to this week’s Rookie Reply. I’m Ashley at Wealth from Rentals, and he’s Tony at Tony J. Robinson. Don’t forget to check out our new book at biggerpockets.com/partnerships. We’ll see you guys with another guest.

Speaker 4:
(singing)

The travel industry is inherently diverse, with a myriad of niches and evolving consumer preferences. This diversity creates fertile ground for early-stage startups to thrive within specific niches within the broader TravelTech landscape.

Let’s dive into five areas where startups are identifying gaps in the market, leveraging technology to enhance travel experiences, and catering to the increasing demand for authenticity, personalization, and sustainability in travel.

1. Travel Experience Platforms

One of the most significant shifts in travel is the move from destination-focused journeys to experience-centric exploration. Startups are capitalizing on this shift by creating platforms that curate unique travel experiences. For example, Travelstride connects adventurers with a myriad of experiences, from cultural immersions to thrilling adventures.

New innovative startups that are able to tap into this demand have a promising space to innovate because of the multitude of niches within this space. Startups could focus either on locations or on types of experiences in which they are experts to add the most possible value for travelers.

Example business idea – a hyper-local adventure hub: a platform that connects travelers with hyper-local adventure guides who curate experiences based on the traveler’s interests. These guides, sourced from the community, offer personalized insights and take travelers on offbeat journeys, providing a genuine taste of the local culture and landscape.

2. Peer-to-Peer Travel Exchanges

Peer-to-peer travel exchanges are gaining momentum as the sharing economy grows. Platforms like BeMyGuest enable travelers to connect with locals for authentic experiences, fostering cultural exchange and transforming the way people perceive and engage with travel.

The success of these startups is rooted in the desire for more meaningful interactions and a departure from standardized tourist experiences. Travelers are increasingly seeking local insights, and startups facilitating these connections are well-positioned for growth as they have the opportunity to redefine the travel narrative by facilitating meaningful interactions between travelers and residents.

Example business idea – a cultural immersion marketplace: a platform where locals can offer immersive cultural experiences to travelers, from traditional cooking classes to guided tours of hidden gems.

3. Personalized Travel Planning

Personalization is a driving force in the modern digital landscape, and travel is no exception. Startups leveraging artificial intelligence to deliver personalized travel planning are disrupting traditional models. AI is the main driving force behind this trend, as it allows scalable technology to cheaply understand the context and needs of the individual traveler – be it budget, interests, or time constraints.

Despite the relatively recent shutdown of Utrip, the niche is likely to see a lot of growth in the coming months and years thanks to the increasing number of developers building apps on top of the OpenAI API. In our experience, being on the cutting edge of a new technology is one of the best ways to ensure impeccable startup timing, which is one of the most important startup success factors.

Example business idea – collaborative travel planning app: an app that allows groups of travelers to collaboratively plan their itinerary. The app considers each traveler’s preferences and constraints, facilitating a democratic and personalized travel planning process. This ensures that everyone in the group has a say in the itinerary.

4. Digital Nomad Support Platforms

With the rise of remote work, digital nomads are redefining the way people approach travel.

Startups are emerging to support this growing demographic with platforms offering resources such as co-living spaces, coworking memberships, and networking opportunities.

Nomad List is a prominent example, providing valuable information on remote work-friendly cities. The success of such platforms stems from the increasing trend of individuals choosing to work from anywhere, and startups facilitating this lifestyle are tapping into a burgeoning market.

5. Adventure and Expedition Planning

The promise in adventure and expedition planning startups lies in meeting the demand for transformative and offbeat travel experiences. Modern travelers seek more than conventional sightseeing, and startups organizing extreme adventures cater to this desire for unique and thrilling escapades.

A good example is tourradar – a travel marketplace offering extreme experiences, from treks through unconventional landscapes to challenging expeditions.

Business idea – AI-powered custom expedition builder: a platform that allows adventure seekers to build their customized expeditions. Users can choose destinations, activities, and difficulty levels, and the platform connects them with local guides and necessary resources to bring their unique adventure to life.